Bismarck firing procedures at DS

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:31 pm

Hello everybody,

in his desperate attempt of denying facts, today Mr.Wadinga has reached another peak, describing above a completely new (and never happened) battle somewhere in Atlantic (better than the "reversed photos" theory)..... :lol:

No British witness, nor any PG's one, noticed that Bismarck was trying to run away before Hood explosion.... :think:

If now Mr.Wadinga battlemap is Elfrath's one, he should at least have considered that this map has been built from a PG track that is NOT at all the one (well known and available) from PG official documentation.... :negative:


Try again with another map, Mr.Wadinga, you MUST save the honor of a couple of timid officers at any cost ! Keep trying and good Luck !



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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wadinga
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:05 pm

Hello Alberto,

The information provided by Schmalenbach is in these maps and is used by the Baron is his book and Santarini in his. One was on PG and the other on the Bismarck, and the last is a serious (if IMHO misguided researcher). They clearly show Bismarck turning away before the Hood explosion. Perhaps in response to the orders Lutjens had been given.


You are using Schmalenbach's map information to guess a cease fire time for Bismarck in your Tedious Table because there is no official cease fire time for Bismarck.

Only you and your co-author have this pompous "comic book hero" attitude that to withdraw temporarily for tactical advantage is some kind of stain on national and service honour.
a PG track that is NOT at all the one (well known and available) from PG official documentation....
You mean the one "officially" described as useless. :D I mean it looks convincing so how would someone in authority know it was useless...…………... unless someone who was there said it was.........


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by northcape » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:25 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:06 am
Hello everybody,

Q.E.D.
being totally ignorant about the battle and the related documents, this hooligan is not even aware of Lutjens' sent message (I would say a most official evidence....) stating that Bismarck expended 93 shells during the battle.
Even his fellow denier says this is factual information, but this guy is too ignorant and arrogant to read other people posts:
Wadinga wrote: "The only factual information in the Bismarck line of the tedious Table is "93" rounds total....."
:lol: :lol: :lol:



Of course this denier at any cost will now try to say that Lutjens was sending false info to Berlin when transmitting from the Bismarck, revealing his only intent: defend Leach and diminish PoW performance vs Bismarck.... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
Still not able to read and understand: the question is about number AND timing. Please provide the official German document with number and timing, which would allow to calculate ROF for a given time period.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:53 am

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

sometimes I ask myself why you are keep on spending time with such ignorant and incompetent persons like the ones writing here above.

Here, just like in other threads they have only one hidden agenda, ... to refute every possible change of what was declared during war time ( very little and always in favour of the winner ) ... the loved novel, … and never accept any change despite the new documents becoming available.

One ignorant was already demonstrated being wrong with the maps, … of which he knows and understands very little anyway ( no geometry knowledge at all ), .. here comes again with the same subject, … challenging a map and proposing nothing … but some old wrong maps again, … stubbornly.

Another wants the official German documents he does not know at all, ... while he pretends to challenge you with his incompetence and lack of information.

Just tell them to go, … do their homework, … study the documents, ... and after have done it come here and show us the results of their works.

So at least we can laugh and have fun, … :wink:


Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:28 am

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "The information provided by Schmalenbach is in these maps and is used by the Baron is his book"
FALSE!
The Baron DID not follow Schmalenbach 1943 map.
His published map is this (my version of his book is in Italian, sorry) and it is fundamentally the same as Antonio's one (albeit much less precise and with some minutes difference), showing the turn of Bismarck to course 270° ONLY AFTER Hood explosion (after 6:02). The only difference is the course after 6:05, being 180° while in Antonio precise reconstruction it is back to 220°).

Baron_Map.jpg
Baron_Map.jpg (23.02 KiB) Viewed 2181 times

Of course, also in the Baron map, PG turns to starboard after Bismarck (at least one minute after), she is on starboard side o Bismarck only after 6:08 (as per last photo available) and the Baron correctly mark the cease fire at 6:09 ("ultima salva").... :clap: :clap: :clap:



Wadinga wrote: "the one "officially" described as useless"
PG battlemap was judged useless by Schmundt for the tracks of the British ships, as the PoW salvo plot is IMO useless (less wrong, I admit) to define the Bismarck course. Of course the PG battlemap is the ONLY RELIABLE source for PG track and MUST be used to reconstruct the battle (annoying as it can be for bearing to Suffolk.... :lol: ).



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:39 am

Hello everybody,
as comparison with the Baron map, this is a snapshot from the last Antonio battlemap (simplified version, published on "Storia Militare" in 2017, please don't consider the shape of the turns, just the relative positions, basically a refined version of his 2005 one)

Bonomi_Battlemap_2017.jpg
Bonomi_Battlemap_2017.jpg (28.88 KiB) Viewed 2180 times

Bismarck turns to 270° at 6:03, before PG, PG turns at 6:04, PG is on starboard side of Bismarck only after 6:09: basically the substance is the same as the Baron in these regards....


Both these maps confirm that the film (6:03:30 - 6:05) and the photos (showing in total 11 semi-salvos) were taken after the sinking of Hood and the retreat of the PoW, therefore that Bismarck fired fast (as PG, per Jasper GAR) after the avoiding maneuvers, despite the comical denial attempts of Mr.Wadinga and ..other lackeys... :lol:



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:59 am

Image
Regards

Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:13 am

...and the similarly wrong PG battlemap regarding the British tracks (as PoW chart is totally useless re. German ones), as logical.

PG_battlemap.jpg
PG_battlemap.jpg (63.49 KiB) Viewed 2158 times

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:37 am

That means no one had Antonio's map in 1941? :shock:
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:53 am

Hello everybody,

PG precise own track is available on her battle map.

PoW and Hood own tracks are available on PoW precise battle maps ( several ).

Bismarck track can be determined by her position at the battle start ( NH 69722 at 05:55 ) and her position after 06:03 and onward from the photos and film available.

@ Herr Nilsson,

what you propose, .. as proposed by PoW evaluations, ... can be only a small variation of the Bismarck run track course once it is based and respecting the above evidence, ... and considering also Schmitz_Westerholt paint at 06:00 ... which is like a photo as evidence according to Lagemann that was there too.
Otto Schlenzka confirmed this to me in clear words and I have the recorded interview like for Henning Von Schulz ( both PG Officers and battle witnesses I have personally interviewed ).

@ Alberto Virtani,

you are right about Schmundt words to Brinkmann in relation to PG battle map, … surely correct for PG but not acceptable for the enemy tracks in relation to PG, … as we know, … SH and GU vs Glorious were the same maps too.

Surely " those guys " like better the PoW and Hood tracks, … used by PInchin on " The Plot " ... despite Rowell on the same moment having provided to the same Board and probably they have been both on the same table on that moment one aside the other ... a clear map showing the Hood explosion moment and the Hood/PoW run tracks, ... in clear evident conflict to what " The Plot " was showing.

But we know, ..they were ready to accept " The Plot " ... as it was, ... :wink:


Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:14 am

@Antonio
Perhaps we deniers are just more critical. In the background of the Schmitz-Westerholt painting is the same scenry like on NH 69731. You're saying this painting depicts 06:00. Does this mean that you've changed your mind and Hood exploded before 06:00?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by northcape » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:51 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:53 am
Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

sometimes I ask myself why you are keep on spending time with such ignorant and incompetent persons like the ones writing here above.

Here, just like in other threads they have only one hidden agenda, ... to refute every possible change of what was declared during war time ( very little and always in favour of the winner ) ... the loved novel, … and never accept any change despite the new documents becoming available.

One ignorant was already demonstrated being wrong with the maps, … of which he knows and understands very little anyway ( no geometry knowledge at all ), .. here comes again with the same subject, … challenging a map and proposing nothing … but some old wrong maps again, … stubbornly.

Another wants the official German documents he does not know at all, ... while he pretends to challenge you with his incompetence and lack of information.

Just tell them to go, … do their homework, … study the documents, ... and after have done it come here and show us the results of their works.

So at least we can laugh and have fun, … :wink:


Bye Antonio
Ok a lot of the same Blabla again, but coming back to the point: can you provide original documents showing timing of Bismarck shots?

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:10 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

sometimes I ask myself if you fully agree with everything those " hooligan/deniers " are writing, ... when you put yourself among them, ... especially some really ridiculous incorrect statements that I am sure you cannot agree with, ... so low competence they show, ... I have always been rating you much, ... much better than such a poor level competence.

Anyway, everybody is free to do what he wants.

You know since many years that I took that Schmitz_Westerholt paint as a reference only for the relative position of Bismarck in relation to Prinz Eugen when the Hood exploded, on her starboard side backwards.
The same situation was confirmed by Schlenza and Von Schultz, ... on top of Busch and Schmalenbach descriptions too.

I am not an expert in artistic realization, ... but I am sure that Schmitz_Westerholt used some artistic licenses on realizing it as you are noticing.

Photos NH 69724 and NH 69731 has been widely analyzed and properly timed already, ... no need to do it again and again once more.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:51 pm

@Antonio

The deniers have reasonable doubts and very often it sounds interesting. OTOH I do not concur with your reasoning most of the time and I've learned that therefore I'm a denier and I'm also a not-average-intelligent-person. It's as simple like that.

Anyway, ...so you're saying the painting "is like a photo as evidence" and you're also saying "Schmitz_Westerholt used some artistic licenses". To my above/below-average intelligent brain this sounds like a contradiction in itself.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

Thorsten Wahl
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Thorsten Wahl » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:10 pm

Regarding the POW salvo plot
this chart contains distances, but these distances are not the distance as measured by the rangefinders, but the distance of the expected shell travel from the firing solution.
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!

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