Photo Nh 69730 evaluation

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Antonio Bonomi
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Photo Nh 69730 evaluation

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao all,

here another one to be evaluated.

This time is the Nh 69730, the very famous ' Flash effect ' photo.

Image

Some inputs on the photo, full credits to my friends Herr Nilsson ( Marc ) and Tommy303 that at first saw what for many years was never noticed by the most, including me of course :wink: .

Are you able to see the lighter water line on the horizon starting from the Bismarck bow and going all the way till the right end on the photo.

That is the left Prinz Eugen wake ( in German Keelwasser ).
Prinz Eugen had already passed that area of the sea and her wake has left that clear effect on the ocean that can rest for some minutes.

Now, after having realized that just try to think in which direction is Prinz Eugen sailing and were is this time Lagemann with his photo camera.

Some helps can be obtained of course from the left wake that should make elementary the determination of the Prinz Eugen sailing direction, while the 105 mm gun barrels on top right of the photo should help a lot on realizing were Lagemann was taking this photo.

I can anticipate was one of his favourite positions :lol:

Ciao Antonio :D
marty1
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Post by marty1 »

I can’t do a distance measurement based upon on angular scale method, as there are insufficient numbers of foreground objects to develop a scale.

However I did develop a distance estimate based upon the focal length method I detailed on another thread on this forum.

First: I printed the image out. Set the printer “to fit” the image in landscape on an 8”x11” page. My working image width therefore turned out to be 10.3” in width – or about 261.6mm.

I did two sets of range estimates – the first based upon the height of the main tower on the front of Bismarck – the second from the tallest mast. I measured my heights for each based upon the deck line rather than the water line. So height of main tower is ~28.4m and height of main mast ~43.5m (again measurement is from deck to top for both features).

I estimated a range of ~440m from Lagemann to the main tower, and a distance of ~450m from Lagemann to the main mast. So my guess is about 425m to 475m from Lagemann to Bismarck.

Sensitivity to Croppping:

If I assume the photo width was cropped by up to 10% the distance becomes about 490m – or an estimated range of about 465m to 515m.

If I assume the photo width was cropped by up to 20% the distance becomes about 550m – or an estimated range of about 525m to 575m.

If I assume the photo width was cropped by up to 30% the distance becomes about 640m – or an estimated range of about 615m to 665m.

Best Regards
Marty
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Antonio Bonomi
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Flash effect photo

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Marty and all,

WHOW !!!!!!!!! :shock:

If I can count on your help again my friend I am happy like a baby :D .

You did just great on Nh 69722 and other photos :clap: .

Would you like to play with the full size photo ??

As you know I can send it to you very easily :wink: .

More ... it is already on the air,.... to you :lol: . ..hope your address is not changed, .. just drop me again an e-mail in case.

.. and with some more material to enjoy, ... and evaluate :D

Remember, most likely still a 35 mm negative with 50 mm fixed focal lenght, .. but I like your overall analysis my friend ... :D

Ciao Antonio :D
Robert J. Winklareth
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Post by Robert J. Winklareth »

Hi all,

In my post of 24 February under the topic of Determining Distances in Photographs, I reported a calculated distance of 504 yards after adjusting the height of the image to correspond with the 2 x 3 format. I believe that we all have this one nailed down.

Bob
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Post by Robert J. Winklareth »

Hi all,

I have a scale drawing of the Prinz Eugen showing the location from which Lagemann took NH69730 (left station) and subsequent photographs (right station). Note that the muzzles of the aft twin 105mm AA guns on the port side of the Prinz Eugen are just included within the scope of the photograph. I am requesting Jose to insert it for me since i do not have the means to do it directly.

Bob
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Antonio Bonomi
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Photo Nh 69730

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Bob and all,

I am glad you are now starting the evaluation of everything the photo shows and not only the Bismarck distance and approssimative firing direction.

You should have noticed also the left Prinz Eugen wake clearly visible on the horizon line.

Putting together all the elements the photo shows will help us determing when and were the photo was taken.

Of course with some level of approssimations as usual :wink: .

Ciao Antonio :D
Robert J. Winklareth
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Post by Robert J. Winklareth »

Hi all,

I had sent the diagram that I was referring to those on my e-mail list during private discussions of various issues concerning the battle. If anyone else would like to see the diagram showing the location of Lagemann when he took NH69730 and subsequent photographs, please contact me at:

robjwink@aol.com

Bob
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Antonio Bonomi
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Photo Nh 69730

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Bob and all,

I got your drawing about the position you assume the photo was taken.

But due to the well visible Prinz Eugen wake on the horizon ahead of Bismarck bow that cannot be.

I like your opinion :wink:

Ciao Antonio :D
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wadinga
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Post by wadinga »

All,
Reading through the posts above I find I don't agree this is taken from Starboard side of PG. My logic is as follows:-

The cameraman is standing just inboard of the muzzles of the guns, either forward of the mount on the starboard side or aft of the port one. The barrels are parallel to the horizon, which means the mount is stowed either pointing fore or aft. If the mount were pointing outboard at all the cameraman would have to be floating in mid air outside the deck rail. I can't find a picture in my collection of a Hipper with the after mount stowed pointing forwards. This suggests the picture is from the port side.

A perspective line drawn through the gun muzzles points straight to the Bismarck. This means Bismarck is almost directly off PG's beam. The aspect of Bismarck shown to the camera is approx 45 degrees off her starboard bow. Therefore if this picture were taken from the starboard side, PG's heading would have to be 135 degrees rotated to the right from Bismarck's heading, only 45 from heading in the opposite direction!

If this were the case the ships would be passing at a relative rank of maybe 40 knots and PG would have to make another major turn to port by which time Bismarck would be very long way ahead, and without more major turns on her part, slowing her relative to PG, the latter would never catch up.

However the logic above means that if the cameraman is on the port side aft of the 4.1", and looking out on the beam, at the 45 degree bow aspect of Bismarck they are converging rapidly! Somebody will have to give way to avoid a collision!

I am afraid I cannot see the alledged wake ahead of Bismarck's bows, so this again suggests port side to me.

Sorry to break ranks with a concensus, but this is my opinion.

All the Best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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Antonio Bonomi
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Nh 69730

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Wadinga and all,

of course I understand your logic and your opinion, but in this case I have a much diffent opinion than your one :wink: .

That is OK my friend, we do not have to agree on everything.

Constructive and positive skilled discussion is what helps new comers and other readers to understand better everything about this photo, the battle photo sequence and the overall battle :wink: .

This photo was taken after Nh 69729 showing Bismarck sailing south, presumably on course 220 degrees.

Prinz Eugen was sailing west on course 270 degrees ( reference PG battle map ), so from the right to the left of this photo.

Why I assume this ?

Because of the sequence of the photos showing Bismatck heading south on 220 degrees, shows Prinz Eugen photographer position progressively moving to west, rapidly, consistent with what the Prinz Eugen battle map shows on that timeframe.

Than there is another photo taken after this one that I have sent you.

It shows Bismarck still firing to port side to PoW, the wake of Prinz Eugen on her starboard aft, and the distance between the 2 ships increased a lot.
Of course again both Prinz Eugen and the photographer moving addittionally to the west and Bismarck now very close to cross Prinz Eugen wake astern.

It should not be so difficult to put together those photos sequence, the Prinz Eugen official battle map and the witness reports.

This is the moment Prinz Eugen was ordered not to shoot over the Bismarck coming directly under Prinz Eugen aft main turrets line of fire thru the stern of Prinz Eugen.

What surprises me is that you are not able to see on the horizon line the Prinz Eugen wake, it is easy to be seen also on the Nh 69730 version.
It starts from Bismarck bow on the horizon line and goes all the way to the right till the end of the photo.
Surely the ocean is very different and shows a clear line that is not uniform with the rest of the sea, that is Prinz Eugen wake right there.

The 105 mm gun barrels can be either the aft or the midship ones, .. and to me is one of the 2 on the starboard side.

Do you have a good quality pic of it ??
Do you need me to send you a good one ??

My pleasure my friend to help you in any way I can.

You must evaluate this photo with the ones before and the one after it, with the course of Prinz Eugen on her battle map and were PoW was, but you know better than me all those assumptions.

We are in the middle of the 'caotic' scrambling you correctly depicted, caused by the Prinz Eugen GHG Alarm, and Prinz Eugen is going all over the places, .. as Kpt Ltnt P. Jasper ( PG 1st Artillery Officer ) wrote,.. '' I would like to know why we are turning all over the places like a flying bedstead ' ... :wink:

Ciao Antonio :D
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Re: Photo Nh 69730 evaluation

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao all,

here in you can read another evaluation about this famous photo :

http://www.readybb.com/hmshood/viewtopi ... =2627#2627

But since on the initial evaluation Vic mentioned another photo, I lke to thank officially with this post here in ULRICH RUDOFSKY :clap: for an insight he gave me time ago, .. since he was the one telling me something ' UNUSUAL ' on a Bismarck photo, ... a presence of a wake in front of Bismarck bow,...... and of course you know me,... if something does not match 100 % :think: ... than I need to find out what is the reason for that to be, .. otherwise I am not happy :wink: .

Look at her :

Image

http://www.kbismarck.com/photo052.html

So the name of the game now is,...when you look at a Bismarck photo on Denmark Strait battle,... always carefully look at the ships wake presence,.. anywere ..... even in small line profiles, ... all around ... all places on the photo, ... as sometimes they are under a railing, .. still well visible, .. but you need to know what to look for and were exactly, ...... or like in this case, ..they are in a place they should not be at all :shock:

Now the question is also for you all, .... what Bismarck did at 06.20 more or less that morning,.... why that wake is there ?????

Thanks again ULRICH, .. I know what that is now,..... I think I know,..... BRAVO ! ... :clap: :clap:

Ciao Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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paulcadogan
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Re: Photo Nh 69730 evaluation

Post by paulcadogan »

Hi Antonio - we're talking in two forums at the same time :think:

I think, if this is at 6:20, then it means Bismarck actually followed PE round on her "wild" turn to starboard at 0614 - 0616, and trained her fwd guns to starboard on Suffolk, her aft guns remaining trained on POW. When PoW fired two salvoes at 0620, Bismarck then did a reversal of course so the wake in front of her bow in the photo is actually hers. The photo therefore captures her with her aft guns still targeting PoW while the fwd guns are still pointing to starboard but are probably in the process of training round to port.

If the wake is PE's then the point where Bismarck crossed her wake in the manner shown would have been about 0616 when PE had swung around to a NW course.

Make sense or am I out to lunch :?:

Paul
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Photo Nh 69730 evaluation

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Paul and all,

I think we are exactly on the same opinion about Nh 69730 :wink:

About the other photo taken at 06.20 were Prinz Eugen is coming back to take the lead after having sailed north toward Suffolk that opened fire on her, here is what I suppose happened.

At 06.15 Prinz Eugen launched another torpedo alarm and turned north causing HMS Suffolk immediate reaction.
Meanwhile Bismarck crossed her wake back ( a clear available photo do exist ) and probably reacted to that torpedo alarm too, making a ' circle' to port immediately after while turning her turrets as HMS PoW fired a salvo as well, Bismarck did not fire and after having completed her '' circle '' on her own port side was back on her own wake as you can see.

HMS Suffolk did exactly a manoeuvre like that if you look at my battle map soon after at 06.30,...... guess why :wink: .

Prinz Eugen came back taking the German squadron lead and this is the exact moment this photo was taken.

Now you have the logic explanation why Bismarck is sailing on her own wake while Prinz Eugen comes back.

2 reasons to me drove Kpt Lindemann to do that, first another Prinz Eugen torpedo alarm ( see her battle map at 06.15 ) and second the radar needs, as to understand what was really going on Bismarck only had one radar FuMo23 left, the aft one that this way searched 360 degrees all the horizon.

A very smart move, .... very smart, ... than probaly Adm Lutjens ordered Kpt Brinkmann to stop doing wild turns and go back on the squadron lead never to move from there without an order, .. because of the need to cover with her own higher positioned forward radar the front sector direction .... while Bismarck could cover the back just as they were doing before the battle started as well documented ..... and that is what he did, ..... and this photo documents it quite well ... :D


Ciao Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: Photo Nh 69730 evaluation

Post by wadinga »

Antonio & Co,
Looking back over the thread I find myself astonished to say I think this is the same relative position of the vessels as you had in mind for the Flash effect photo. We are looking across the front shield of a 4.1" mounting with the "bandstand" guardrails of the projecting forward or aft mountings. The wave breaking away from the side of the vessel is closer to the left than it is to the right. This kind of differentiation is typical of the forward part of the vessel, close to the bow. If we are are forward of the forward mount on the starboard side we are indeed on a course about 145 degrees to starboard of Bismarck's current course. Around 10:10 KTB PE checked the oil slick behind Bismarck but only 50 minutes later she was back in front of the Flagship. Since they are in the presence of the enemy and are attempting to get away, they will neither be slowing to walking pace.

If Bismarck were gyrating round in a circle would there really be any point in tracking a very difficult target with the forward guns whilst tracking a completely different one with the rears, when within a very few minutes he/she/it will be back on original heading? This looks to me far more like a "ready for anything" alert posture, some time after the main action.

There are no indications of a circle by Bismarck in any of the published plans.

Interesting....

All the Best
wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Photo Nh 69730 evaluation

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Wadinga and all,

you are right in muy personal opinion about all your interpretations.

YES, Prinz Eugen looks like being more or less at same position as on Nh69730 and this created some confused interpretation on somebody.

On Nh 69730 Prinz Eugen is diverging from Bismarck course and moving right to left clearing the way, the 105 mm gun barrels are of the aft D-Dora on Starboard side.

On this photo Prinz Eugen is converging as you correctly noticed by the wave on her starboard side advancing, the 105 mm gun is the forward one A-Anton on port side.

If you look at my map at 06.20 - 06.21 that is the exact relative course track between Prinz Eugen and Bismarck, around 135-145 degrees converging, so I agree with you on this as well.

We do have a series of several photos of the oil check at 10.10, and this one does not belong to that sequence.

The Bismarck forward turret and guns position are clearly directed to HMS Suffolk firing toward the German ships 5 salvoes on that moment, 06.20, you are right as both them as well as the back ones so rotated arer reday for anything since the action was off many minutes earlier.

But if you look the sequence of the photos immediately after the battle, for some minutes Bismarck was following HMS PoW withe the forwrad and aft turrets, so it is consistent with that action.

You are right,.. no indcation on plans,... but look at what HMS Suffolk did soon after,.....is just my personal intuition for the moment :think: ...and it is very interestng too........ :wink:

Ciao Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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