Prinz Eugen towing Bismarck?

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Bill Jurens
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Re: Prinz Eugen towing Bismarck?

Post by Bill Jurens »

Dave Saxton wrote:

"The BB59 manual I have is dated 1945 and includes historic 1945 operational plans."

Can you tell me what manual you are talking about, exactly? I'm pretty sure I have a copy of it here, but there are quite a few similar documents to choose from and I'm not sure precisely which one you used for your analysis. If I knew that, I might be able to comment more coherently.

Thanks.

Bill Jurens
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Re: Prinz Eugen towing Bismarck?

Post by alecsandros »

paulcadogan wrote:
Gotta say ---Hood was firing 2-gun (semi) salvos that (from the photo evidence we have) had a pretty close spread. With those it's not so easy to straddle! One semi-salvo (probably her third) landed short, slightly off the bow within 50 m of Prinz Eugen (according to Jasper and Busch) putting her decks awash (ie. suggesting more that just spray) with collapsing water. The one on the photo was an over (possibly her 4th semi-salvo) which, had probably passed very close over the ship to land where they did.

I'd hardly call that minimal to non-existent...(until the spotting top hit did its thing) PG was in danger and Capt. Brinkmann (and later Adm Schmundt) knew it!
Hard to defend Hood's gunnery that morning.
Hood opened fire at 5:52 and the foretop hit came at ~ 5:57. That's 5 minutes of firing without straddles or splinters on board of any sort.

Jaspers account is the most dramatic of all concerning Hood's salvo effects. However, lack of shock and/or splinter damage of any sort makes me skeptical about Hood's 15" projectiles falling at 50m from Prinz Eugen. [Bismarck's 15" rounds caused shock damage on HMS Suffolk from 100meters]...

cheers,
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Re: Prinz Eugen towing Bismarck?

Post by paulcadogan »

alecsandros wrote:Hard to defend Hood's gunnery that morning.
Hood opened fire at 5:52 and the foretop hit came at ~ 5:57. That's 5 minutes of firing without straddles or splinters on board of any sort.

Jaspers account is the most dramatic of all concerning Hood's salvo effects. However, lack of shock and/or splinter damage of any sort makes me skeptical about Hood's 15" projectiles falling at 50m from Prinz Eugen. [Bismarck's 15" rounds caused shock damage on HMS Suffolk from 100meters]...

cheers,
It was Busch's description of the splash that was truly dramatic, being the descriptive author he was - Jasper was quoting hearsay since he was focused on his target. IIRC (it was Antonio who posted the quote years ago - wish I could find it) which described cascades of bad-smelling dirty sea water flooding the decks following the splash.

Anyway - I should also have mentioned the turn at 0555 which her DFCT would not have handled nearly as well as PoW's AFCT. I think this is where she lost the line she had just gained with the over, and was unable to recover it, then coming under the combined and accurate fire of both German ships, and taking hits. Excuses, I know, but the realities of being in action...particularly for Hood.

Coulda woulda shoulda - but in reality...didn't....... and that's the bottom line.
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
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Re: Prinz Eugen towing Bismarck?

Post by Dave Saxton »

Bill Jurens wrote:Dave Saxton wrote:

"The BB59 manual I have is dated 1945 and includes historic 1945 operational plans."

Can you tell me what manual you are talking about, exactly? I'm pretty sure I have a copy of it here, but there are quite a few similar documents to choose from and I'm not sure precisely which one you used for your analysis. If I knew that, I might be able to comment more coherently.

Thanks.

Bill Jurens
Hi Bill,

I haven't made any analysis myself. What I did was read off some values from the Fire Effect Data Curve BB-57 through BB-60 vs BB11,12, which is included the USS Massachusetts Gunnery Department Instructions. I do have a a copy of the BB-59 Gunnery Instructions -1945 on one of my old computers as well.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Re: Prinz Eugen towing Bismarck?

Post by alecsandros »

paulcadogan wrote:
alecsandros wrote:Hard to defend Hood's gunnery that morning.
Hood opened fire at 5:52 and the foretop hit came at ~ 5:57. That's 5 minutes of firing without straddles or splinters on board of any sort.

Jaspers account is the most dramatic of all concerning Hood's salvo effects. However, lack of shock and/or splinter damage of any sort makes me skeptical about Hood's 15" projectiles falling at 50m from Prinz Eugen. [Bismarck's 15" rounds caused shock damage on HMS Suffolk from 100meters]...

cheers,
It was Busch's description of the splash that was truly dramatic, being the descriptive author he was - Jasper was quoting hearsay since he was focused on his target. IIRC (it was Antonio who posted the quote years ago - wish I could find it) which described cascades of bad-smelling dirty sea water flooding the decks following the splash.

Anyway - I should also have mentioned the turn at 0555 which her DFCT would not have handled nearly as well as PoW's AFCT. I think this is where she lost the line she had just gained with the over, and was unable to recover it, then coming under the combined and accurate fire of both German ships, and taking hits. Excuses, I know, but the realities of being in action...particularly for Hood.

Coulda woulda shoulda - but in reality...didn't....... and that's the bottom line.
A salvo plot for HMS Hood's fall of shot would be most interesting...
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