Gneisenau

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

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adrian6045
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Gneisenau

Post by adrian6045 »

Im well aware of the many alternate Bismarck scenario's, Tirpitz sails though not having completed trials, various combinations with the Battlecruisers etc etc.

I wondered if the following had been looked at.

In March 1941 the Twins put into Brest, Scharnhorst needed to be dry docked due to engine troubles, subsequently while in Brest Gneisenau was damaged by air attack, leaving her unfit to support the breakout by Bismarck.

However - although Scharnhorst needed dry dock facilities Gneisenau did not, could the pair not have been split up, Gneisenau going to St Nazaire or La Rochelle or even Bordeaux ?.
Might this have altered events such that Gneisenau was not damaged by air attack.

I wonder what effect Gneisenau's presence alone in the Atlantic could have had on Royal Navy / Tovey's dispositions.

Is it feasable that she joins Bismarck in the Denmarck strait, leading to Hood PoW v Bismarck and Gneisenau scenario.

Alternatively - given that Gneisenau is unable to join Bismarck in the DMS's and Hood sinks with Bismarck incurring damage as she did, how can Gneisenau be used to assist Bismarck in getting to Brest. Maybe she joins Bismarck after the battle in the DMS's and her AA guns are enough to alter the events of the torpedoe attack that hits Bismarck's rudder.
Regards.
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paulcadogan
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Re: Gneisenau

Post by paulcadogan »

Hi Adrian,

If Gneisenau had been serviceable at the time of Rheinubung it is doubtful that she would have sailed all the way to meet Bismarck in the DS - far too risky with the British on the alert - and they would have been on the alert for any sortie by either or both of the twins.

Before Rheinubung the RN mounted regular patrols in the Bay of Biscay area - King George V, Hood, Force H (Renown, Ark Royal et al) all spent time patrolling the area as long as the British believed the Twins were able to put to sea, Once they had been effectively bombed the patrols were relaxed.

A sortie by Gneisenau, simultaneous with Bismarck & Prinz Eugen leaving Norway would have put serious strain on the RN. With convoys paasing through the area - especially the troopship convoy WS8B, Force H would have sortied after her, Repulse and Victorious might not have been detached from WS8B to the Home Fleet. If Tovey still sent Hood & PoW ahead, he would then have followed with KGV with the 4 light cruisers with no Repulse or carrier support. I doubt this would have made any real difference since Repulse ultimately saw no action and Victorious' torpedo attack, while having some effect on morale on both sides, really did not significantly affect Bismarck's seakeaping ability.

I suspect the outcome would have been the same overall, since Lutjens would probably have arranged for Gneisenau to meet the Prinz to conduct the Atlantic raid while Bismarck headed for France. The result - Bismarck is still crippled by Ark Royal and destroyed by Rodney & KGV, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen (the latter with her engine/propeller issues) head back to Brest.

That's my take, but for sure, there could be other scenarios. (BTW, his thread should really have started in the "Hypothetical Naval Scenarios" forum! :wink: )

Paul
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
adrian6045
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Re: Gneisenau

Post by adrian6045 »

Thanx, yes i see its in the wrong place know, can i move it, do i close this and just copy it or ????
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RF
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Re: Gneisenau

Post by RF »

paulcadogan wrote:
..... since Lutjens would probably have arranged for Gneisenau to meet the Prinz to conduct the Atlantic raid while Bismarck headed for France. The result - Bismarck is still crippled by Ark Royal and destroyed by Rodney & KGV, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen (the latter with her engine/propeller issues) head back to Brest.
Paul
If Lutjens and Raeder had that degree of organisation at their disposal then they would have got a u-boat concentration to attack RodNey/KGV together with massive Luftwaffe support, using Bismarck as bait.
Once the British are beaten off - by fuel shortages as well as KM/Luftwaffe attack, then Gneisenau can provide the heavy ship escort for ocean going tugs to bring Bismarck back in.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
alecsandros
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Re: Gneisenau

Post by alecsandros »

RF wrote: If Lutjens and Raeder had that degree of organisation at their disposal then they would have got a u-boat concentration to attack RodNey/KGV together with massive Luftwaffe support, using Bismarck as bait.
Indeed.
What puzzels me though is that During Bismarck's final day, Luftwaffe DID try to provide bomber support. There were at least 70 bombers sent to assist.
However, they only found DD Mashona, which was bombed and sunk the same day. The bulk of the British squadron, including the 2 battleships, were not detected, probably because of the overcast sky...
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RF
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Re: Gneisenau

Post by RF »

This is the 28th May and by then Tovey was out of range. Incidently 70 bombers would not be anywhere near enough.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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