Bismarck commerce raiding

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paul.mercer
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Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by paul.mercer »

Gentlemen,
Unfortunately the 'Bismarck escapes' thread appears to be locked so here is another angle.
Lets assume that she is not intercepted and breaks out for commerce raiding.
As we know, when the twins broke out the instructions were for them not to engage equal or superior forces i.e. convoys accompanied by battleships and they did exactly that when confronted with Ramilles, Malaya and Rodney, presumably because although very old they all had formidable armament.
In your expert opinions, what would Bismarck have done, bearing in mind that she had a bit more freedom to attack ? Personally, I have no doubt that she would have had no trouble with Ramillies, a little trouble with Malaya and possibly big trouble with Rodney, but do you think Lutyens would have accepted battle at all, again bearing in mind that the German ships could not afford to take a lot of damage when far away from a friendly port?
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by José M. Rico »

Hello Paul,

The Seekriegsleitung Operation Order for Exercise Rhine dated April 2, 1941, states:

"In contrast to previous directives to the Gneisenau-Scharnhorst task force, it is the mission of this task force to also attack escorted convoys. However, the objective of the battleship Bismarck should not be to defeat, in an all-out engagement, enemies of equal strength, but to tie them down in a delaying action, while preserving her own combat capability as much as possible, so as to allow the other ships [Prinz Eugen and Gneisenau] to get at the merchant vessels in the convoy.
The primary mission of this operation also is the destruction of the enemy's merchant shipping; enemy warships will be engaged only when that primary mission makes it necessary and it can be done without excessive risk. "


... and the Fleet Order of 22 April 1941:

"Attacks on Convoys.
Some of the convoys encountered by the battleships during the operation were escorted by a battleship and, in one case, by two cruisers and two destroyers also. Escorts of comparable strength must be anticipated in the future. The operational directives of the Seekriegsleitung and Group West allow Bismarck only to tie down a battleship escorting a convoy, insofar as that is possible without fully engaging, and that only in the event such action gives Prinz Eugen the possibility of success against the rest of the escort or against the convoy.

Accordingly, when Bismarck and Prinz Eugen attack a convoy, they must do so from opposite sides. In every case, tactical and attack orders will come from the Fleet Commander.

Without coming in battle contact, the exact strength of a convoy's escort can usually be determined only by shipboard aircraft. This deployment is, however, dependent upon the tactical situation and the weather and therefore, rarely possible on the Halifax-England route. It must, therefore, be anticipated that, in making an attack, Prinz Eugen will encounter escorting cruisers even if Bismarck succeeds in drawing off the big ship. In this event, the cruiser's attack on the convoy is to be broken off an immediate report made. But even when only one big ship is escorting the convoy, the enemy, if he follows good tactics, will stay in the immediate vicinity of the convoy and protect it from all sides. In this case there can be no question of an attack by the cruiser; that may occur only if the big ship allows the Bismarck to draw her so far from her charges that the cruiser has a chance of getting within effective shooting range of the convoy.

If the ships are in search sectors and the Prinz Eugen sights a convoy, she should report it by short signal at close range and stay a tghe extreme edge of visibility (smokeless). With respect to the necessity of later surprise attacks, it cannnot be the task of the cruiser to ascertain the strength of the escort. That must be left to the Bismarck. In an attack on a convoy, the main objective must be to sink as many steamers as possible. When a weakly escorted convoy is attacked, the convoy commander will certainly disperse his charges. In this case, the first objective must be to disable the largest possible number of steamers by gunfire. (They can be sunk later.) For this, all batteries are to open up with exact firing directions and at the lowest possible range appropriate to the caliber. (Main and secondary batteries with nose-fuzed and base-fuzed projectiles, heavy flak nose-fuzed.) Steamers that have been disabled by gunfire are not to be sunk until there is not one steamer still moving within sight of the ship concerned. To conserve ammunition, the heavy flak is to be nose-fuzed and used in the following manner: close within 300-500 meters of the ship, then have the best gunners fire individual shots into the waterline. Fire only when the ship is on the up-roll. Shoot holes in all the steamers' compartments (the largest room is the engine room). With 3.7-centimeter ammunition, shoot holes in the upper part of he steamer, so that during flooding of the rooms, air can escape upwards.

Prinz Eugen will also use her torpedoes in an attack on a convoy. Against a strongly defended convoy, there will be only a short time, if any, available for the cruiser's attack. This must be exploited as fully as possible. In this case especially, everything will depend on speedy action. The steamers are therefore to be sunk primarily with torpedoes.

The work of destruction may not be delayed by rescue operations.

The rescue of survivors, especially those from a convoy that has been attacked, can expose our own ships to serious danger from enemy submarines and surface forces. In such cases, concern for our ships must take precedence over the rescue of survivors. If necessary, a small steamer is to be spared for the purpose of rescuing survivors."
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by RF »

These are fairly detailed instructions, but the Fleet Commander will have problems in carrying them out to the letter.

One thing noteworthy in these instructions is the absence of any mention of RN destroyers and the threat of their torpedoes, something rather odd considering what happened to Scharnhorst at the time of the destruction of Glorious.

The Fleet Commanders' biggest problem is that Bismarck is only accompanied by Prinz Eugen, which would be vulnerable in attacking convoy escorts. The PE would have to be shepherded by Bismarck and convoy attacks from opposite directions would be far more awkward than with the twins because of the disparity in firepower and reach between these two ships. Captain Brinckmann is specifically excluded from taking any iniative acxtion in attacking a convoy; he must defer to the Fleet Commander, so if a convoy is approached from opposite ends how does Brinkmann report to the Fleet Commander without breaking radio silence? And if radio silence is broken and PE is still alone, what happens if a couple of cruisers plus destroyers seek to attack PE from several different angles - there won't be supporting fire from Bismarck, who would be virtually out of sight.

These orders pose too many problems. I think the Fleet Commander would have to keep PE in close proximity. Bismarck would have to be the principal attack weapon, PE kept close by and in reserve with supporting fire against destroyers and sink any merchant ships in range.

If the twins were available the whole scenario changes - Bismarck can engage the escorting battleship, whilst the other threes ships can attack from the opposite end of the convoy and the phalanx of 11 inch and 8 inch gunfire could sink both convoy and escorts without the destroyers getting into effective torpedo range.....
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by RF »

paul.mercer wrote: Gentlemen,
but do you think Lutyens would have accepted battle at all, again bearing in mind that the German ships could not afford to take a lot of damage when far away from a friendly port?
This is a moot point with Lutjens as Fleet Commander. How far would he engage? Probably in a feinting movement, approach bow on. open fire with forward turrets then when the British battleship replies, back off before Bismarck's range is found, with the aim of drawing the RN battleship away from the convoy. I don't think the RN battleship would be drawn, and the convoy would remain concentrated and not scatter. And it would be likely that a cruiser in the convoy would be detailed to leave the convoy and trail Bismarck......

I don't think Lutjens would be very bold - or successful.
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by Dave Saxton »

What is interesting is that the SKL's orders leave some room for interputation and allow for more agressive tactics, while the detailed orders drawn up by the Fleet Command (Luetjens was the Fleet Commander) are more rigid.

I think this goes back to Hoffman's attemt to intice Ramillies into chasing and engaging the Scharnhorst in the previous operation. Luetjens doesn't want other ship commanders to have too much lattitude in interputing the rules of engagement.

As for the threat of torpedo toting escorts, the best way to deal with this is to stay out of effective torpedo range and use the longer range capabilities of your modern gunships artillery and advanced firecontrol. This was essentially what Kummetz did with the Hipper at Barents Sea. This is also why a pincer type attack is called for, because by remaining beyond torpedo range you need somebody else to press the attack on a convoy. A smaller warship needs a more powerful consort to facilitate attack of strongly escorted convoys.

Old R class battleships and such really represented not much more than a bluff in the face of modern battleships or battlecruisers, because something like the Bismarck or Gneiesnau can just stand off at a longer range and pummel one of these old unmodernized battleships. A cruiser like Prinz Eguen can do likewise with lesser escorts than itself.
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by lwd »

Dave Saxton wrote:... Old R class battleships and such really represented not much more than a bluff in the face of modern battleships or battlecruisers, because something like the Bismarck or Gneiesnau can just stand off at a longer range and pummel one of these old unmodernized battleships. A cruiser like Prinz Eguen can do likewise with lesser escorts than itself.
Can they? If they try this how many times can they do it? Sounds like a rather time consuming and ammo intensive tactic. Furthermore at this point the raiders are localized.
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by Dave Saxton »

Yes they can. As all they need do is to allow this to occur:
However, the objective of the battleship Bismarck should not be to defeat, in an all-out engagement, enemies of equal strength, but to tie them down in a delaying action, while preserving her own combat capability as much as possible, so as to allow the other ships [Prinz Eugen and Gneisenau] to get at the merchant vessels in the convoy.
The primary mission of this operation also is the destruction of the enemy's merchant shipping; enemy warships will be engaged only when that primary mission makes it necessary and it can be done without excessive risk.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by lwd »

"Allow it to occur"? That rather implies the escort cooperates with the German plan doesn't it? And as I suggested long range gun engaments can be rather expensive in terms of ammunition expenditure. Furthermore if an old battle ships is heavily damaged or even sunk but the Bismarck sustains much damage that at best (from the German POV) ends the current sortie.
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by José M. Rico »

What's your point lwd?
Surely Admiral Lütjens was well aware of the risks involved in such engaments.
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by lwd »

The point is that Dave seems to be imlying that it is an easy tactic to follow. I disagree especially if they are going to try it repeatedly. It may well be the best tactic for them to use but that's different from being one that can be successful on a repeated basis. Look at the points against it.
It relys on superior recon and intelligence. However the German ships are basically reliant on arial scouting for this to work. However the allies will also have that capability. The Germans will also potentially have sub reports but the allies have more surface ships at sea which are more effective scouts than subs when capital ships are the quarry. Furthermore if the Germans use their radios much at all they risk giving away their positions. That applies to both the planes, subs, and the ships. If the ships find a convoy on their own if they are traveling in consort it will take them some time to seperate enough to try this tactic. Furthermore the allies are likely to be aware of both ships which lets the escort try and keep them both at bay at least for a while. The Germans will also not be aware how long they have either as their presence at sea is almost a guarantee of British hunter groups at sea. Good weather for German observation craft also implies good weather for British and perhaps US carrier planes as well. Then there's the operational area to consider. If it's before 7 Dec 1941 then if they are west if Iceland the convoy may well have a US escort in which case what do they do? if East of Iceland they are likely to be closer to the British hunger groups. After that they don't have to worry about the political ramification of attacking US ships but they also have a lot more active enemies. Then there's radar. While the German ships may have radar that is comparable to that of the allies the allies will be using thiers on a regular basis if the Germans use theirs again they may give themselves away via Huff Duff. In short even breaking out into the Atlantic, especially as the war progresses, is far from a guarantee of any sort of success and by 43 or 44 probably a death sentence to the German ships.
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by José M. Rico »

Attacking a heavily escorted convoy is certainly not an easy task. When Dave mentioned the "Old R class battleships" he may have been thinking of convoy HX-127 that had departed Halifax on May 16, and arrived in Liverpool on June 2, 1941. Had Bismarck and Prinz Eugen managed to reach the Atlantic unnoticed (just as Paul Mercer proposed in his first post) and intercepted convoy HX-127, then an encounter with the escorting battleship, HMS Ramillies, could actually have happened. How hard Lütjens would have pressed the attack and how successful Ramilies could defend the convoy is something to think about. Th
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by Olaf »

Dave Saxton wrote:Old R class battleships and such really represented not much more than a bluff in the face of modern battleships or battlecruisers, because something like the Bismarck or Gneiesnau can just stand off at a longer range and pummel one of these old unmodernized battleships.
I'm not sure if one of the twins could do this. What about the firing range of the R-class battleships?

If it were that easy, then you could even concentrate your long-range fire on the merchants, not on the warriors ... :whistle:

Happy discussing ~ Olaf!
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by Dave Saxton »

The max range of the R class main battery was Approx. 21.5km. Also their armour protection was weaker than Hood (except Royal Oak).
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by Bgile »

Dave Saxton wrote:The max range of the R class main battery was Approx. 21.5km. Also their armour protection was weaker than Hood (except Royal Oak).
The R-class were the only ships to receive supercharges for this very reason. They could fire out to over 28,000 yds with supercharges.
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Re: Bismarck commerce raiding

Post by Dave Saxton »

But they were not yet issued any super charges during this time frame. Supercharges were never used anyway, not even in practice shoots. I'd hate to think of the gunlaying problems during the stress of combat stemming from the unknown ballistic properties.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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