Tovey's decision

[Bgile]

Gentlemen,
Many thanks for all your replies.
I suppose this next question ought to be under 'hypothetical situations' it may have been posed to you before but I could not find it, so please forgive my ignorance.
In your expert opinions, what would the outcome have been if Tovey had taken KGV & Hood and had let KGV take the lead in the opening stage of the battle so Bismarck targeted her first?

KGV was fully worked up and would have had a higher volume of fire with greater accuracy. I suspect that in the scenario you propose that Bismarck would have been forced to engage KGV and that KGV and Hood would have crippled Bismarck in DS and then sank her.

I thought you'd been saying that PoW actually shot very well at DS, that her output was as great as any other battleship. Are you saying that KGV would have sunk Bismarck in the few minutes she required to sink Hood?

[dunmunro]

I thought you'd been saying that PoW actually shot very well at DS, that her output was as great as any other battleship. Are you saying that KGV would have sunk Bismarck in the few minutes she required to sink Hood?

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say. Pow was not fully worked up, her radar systems proved to be defective and her output was about 74% during the ~9 minute engagement. KGV's radar systems were providing ranges past 25K yds and she had no recorded loss of output for the first 32 minutes of her engagement against Bismarck (in a force 6-8 gale). Why wouldn't KGV score more hits on Bismarck? If KGV began to hit Bismarck on her 2nd or 3rd salvo and Hood also targeted Bismarck (rather than PE) It seems rather likely that Bismarck would be hit more often than historically and it is likely that Bismarck's return fire would suffer as a result. Additionally KGV would have been better positioned to engage PE with secondary armament.

[alecsandros]

That is a possibility; but the main element would be "who finds the range first and hits more often"... While the historical facts point towards the British finding the range first (PoW straddled at the 3rd salvo ?), the consistency of the firing solution and the rate of fire are important advantages the Germans had at Denmark Strait...

[dunmunro]

That is a possibility; but the main element would be "who finds the range first and hits more often"... While the historical facts point towards the British finding the range first (PoW straddled at the 3rd salvo ?), the consistency of the firing solution and the rate of fire are important advantages the Germans had at Denmark Strait...

PoW, on her 6th salvo, scored the first hit at DS:

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... encIVa.gif

One of the reasons that PoW's accuracy fell off was the need to make an abrupt turn to avoid Hood. If Hood was the trailing ship, KGV's FC solution would have remained intact even if Hood was destroyed.

[lwd]

1) Didn't POW have some guns non operational when she went into the battle?
2) At least some of those that went out of action during the battle were not due to fire from the German ships, correct?
If the answer to these two questions is affirmative then it's pretty clear that KGV would put more rounds down range even without allowing for a more skilled crew at least until or if combat effects started to impact her gunnery.
If KGV (or even POW) had been in the lead rather than Hood then it very likely that ship would have been the one Bismarck engaged. Catastrophic destruction of either one would be unlikely which means that both British capital ships remain engaged. This is not a good thing for either Bismarck or Prince Eugen. Odds are that in such an engagment both German ships are crippled. I don't think it likely that Bismarck would have been sunk by the 4 British ships present at the time but she wouldn't last long when the other two battleships showed up along with their escorts and a carrier strike or two.

[alecsandros]

This is a very complicated "what if", and it may have gone either way.
Judging from the historical encounter though, I'd say that the German ships had a good tactical advantage (crossing the T), their fire control and gunnery were more accurate, and the rate of fire was better.
If a shell would pass through KGV's con tower like it did on PoW, I doubt the ship would be in good fighting capability for few minutes or more; also, if the battle is longer than 15-20 minutes, mechanical problems with the quad-14" turret are likely to occur on board KGV.

Hood fired badly at DS, I see no reason for it to fire better in case KGV takes the lead.

[lwd]

This is a very complicated "what if", and it may have gone either way.
Judging from the historical encounter though, I'd say that the German ships had a good tactical advantage (crossing the T), their fire control and gunnery were more accurate, and the rate of fire was better.

The first advantage was disappering as Hood and POW turned lacking the catastrophic destruction of Hood it becomes marginal. POW firing wasn't that bad and if KGV shoots better your fire control and gunnery advantages are not nearly so clear and the rate of fire of battleship caliber rounds is going to be inferior to the two Brtish ships.

If a shell would pass through KGV's con tower like it did on PoW, I doubt the ship would be in good fighting capability for few minutes or more;

If something that requires a rapid reaction of command occurs you may be correct. However if it's after the two have turned to parrallel Bismarck's course then it probably won't make that much difference.

also, if the battle is longer than 15-20 minutes, mechanical problems with the quad-14" turret are likely to occur on board KGV.

Possibly but accumulated damage from battlship caliber hits is likely to dominate this effect at that point in the battle.

Hood fired badly at DS, I see no reason for it to fire better in case KGV takes the lead.

This has been disputed rather well in other threads on this topic. Indeed her first salvo straddled Eugen with shells landing close enough that there is fairly valid speculation that had the target been Bismarck hits would have been registered. If KGV is taking the fire there is little to degrade Hoods shooting and she had shot well on previous occasions.

[dunmunro]

If a shell would pass through KGV's con tower like it did on PoW, I doubt the ship would be in good fighting capability for few minutes or more; also, if the battle is longer than 15-20 minutes, mechanical problems with the quad-14" turret are likely to occur on board KGV.
.

A shell did not pass through PoW's CT, it hit the unprotected compass platform, but this did not impair PoW's FC systems and these continued to operate as before.

KGV suffered a jammed shell tray at 32min into the action but DoY never did, although she did have some ammo feed problems several hours into the action.

[alecsandros]

My point is that the Bismarck still has it's chances of success, allthough it may be severily damaged after such an encounter...

It could have gone either way, just as the real Denamrk Strait might have gone either way... Luck is an essential element in the outcomes of real naval battles...

[lwd]

My point is that the Bismarck still has it's chances of success, allthough it may be severily damaged after such an encounter...

Depending on your defintion of "success" as it was POW effectivly mission killed Bismarck. If both British ships survive and Bismarck takes even more damage at best it's a minor tactical victory and a strategic loss. It's even worse in that regard if Eugen is lost which is a distinct possiblity.

It could have gone either way, just as the real Denamrk Strait might have gone either way... Luck is an essential element in the outcomes of real naval battles...

Indeed but Bismarck was extremely lucky that day and while the British sustained more damage in strategic terms it was still a British victory as it lead to the loss of Bismarck in exchange for Hood a trade the British could afford and the Germans couldn't.

[RNfanDan]

In your expert opinions, what would the outcome have been if Tovey had taken KGV & Hood and had let KGV take the lead in the opening stage of the battle so Bismarck targeted her first?

Unlikely as this was to have ever occurred, if we change enough of the circumstances (see my previous reply) to allow Tovey the confidence ---from an intelligence/reconnaisance standpoint--- to take KGV with Hood to the Strait, the outcome is almost guaranteed to be different.

One can only equalize so many factors, and one of the KEY things to consider in that hypothetical situation is that Tovey, himself, now becomes the senior officer on the scene (not Holland, even if he were to still be aboard Hood). Free of any Fleet Commander's worry over both interfering with Holland's judgments AND the burden of "cradling" a brand-new, untested battleship, Tovey very likely wins the engagement.

He would almost certainly have granted Hood the tremendous advantage of independent movement in the fight, just as he did in reality with Rodney, enabling even more favorable circumstances. This is to mention nothing of Wake-Walker's cruisers getting involved, as well.

Additionally, Tovey does not lose his ships' interception and bearing advantage by a diversion to the north the previous night (remember that the intelligence information has now changed in this hypothetical scenario). This was the British force's greatest tactical handicap, allowing the Germans to move further south and west than would have been the case, had Holland not been so diverted.

FWIW,

Dan

[alecsandros]

Indeed but Bismarck was extremely lucky that day and while the British sustained more damage in strategic terms it was still a British victory as it lead to the loss of Bismarck in exchange for Hood a trade the British could afford and the Germans couldn't.

It was some luck involved, yes. But there were also a series of mistakes done by the British... As it was, Hood had no portion of it armored to withstand Bismarck's guns in normal battle obliquities below 20km. So it was a matter of time before a shell would hit a magazine. Hood fired badly anyway, and very badly after taking the first hit, or hits from PE and BS. PoW only damaged Bismarck while it was firing un-opposed. As soon as the big guns opened on her, the British BB did not hit at least once, nor did it straddle the enemy. It put up a smoke screen and ran away.

I don't share your perspective of "British victory", neither in tactical nor on the strategical plane. The "path to victory" only started after Bismarck's rudder was jamed.

[Patrick McWilliams]

Re this thread... Rodney wasn't part of Tovey's thinking until after the Denmark Strait disaster, when she was detached from escort duties/trip for repairs and ordered to join the chase for Bismarck. So the comment that the strongest "pair" was KGV and Rodney is correct but only in the context of pursuing Bismarck after the breakout.

Still, another question that raises is: why weren't Rodney's plans changed as soon as a breakout was suspected? Might this not indicate a degree of complaceny on Tovey's part that contradicts the general view that British resources were stretched in attempting to cover all exits into the Atlantic?

It's difficult to get Rodney's exact movements in that period but she had been at Scapa Flow until c. 18 May and her course to USA was from the North Channel area. On 23rd she'd have been about 400 miles south of the Faeroes-Iceland Gap. Why not send her in that direction earlier or swing her northwards at the earliest possible moment to cover one of the breakout areas? That could have released KGV for the DS gap, if we assume that Tovey was worried about POW's readiness.

The point about Tovey not wanting to be at the periphery of operations (i.e. the DS) is a fair one, right enough.

What does Ian Ballantayne say about the options open to Tovey? And what that is new does he add to our knowledge or thinking about the Bismarck

Incidentally, other threads here going back some years indicate that had the unexploded shell near POW's bow gone off on impact, it would have severely threatened the ship's survival. And posters here say Bismarck was lucky that day!

[wadinga]

All,

Rodney's sub 23 knot speed meant she was incapable of "hunting" Bismarck in any meaningful way and the best place she could be was protecting her valuable charge. Only when the Admiralty became sufficiently desperate was she brought into play, and that was an Admiralty decision, not Tovey's. She only got her chance to engage at all because of a few stick and string aircraft manned by intrepid FAA aviators.

All the best

Wadinga

[lwd]

Indeed but Bismarck was extremely lucky that day and while the British sustained more damage in strategic terms it was still a British victory as it lead to the loss of Bismarck in exchange for Hood a trade the British could afford and the Germans couldn't.

It was some luck involved, yes. But there were also a series of mistakes done by the British... As it was, Hood had no portion of it armored to withstand Bismarck's guns in normal battle obliquities below 20km. So it was a matter of time before a shell would hit a magazine.

The probablity of getting a hit that lead to the catastrophic destruction of Hood early in the battle was extremely low. Thus no matter what mistakes you consider the British to have made Bismarck was very lucky that day. Furthermore hits on Hoods magazine were hardly just "a matter of time". Magazines don't take up a huge amount of the projected area and as ranges close often require signficant under water trajectories to hit. Furthermore if Hood is shooting back this is time Bismarck may well not have.

Hood fired badly anyway, and very badly after taking the first hit, or hits from PE and BS.

That's rather subjective. Indeed if she was changing targets and had taken a hit to her top spot this is hardly unexpected. On the otherhand if Bismrack and perhaps Eugen are firing on KGV or PoW instead of Hood then it's completely irrelevant.

PoW only damaged Bismarck while it was firing un-opposed. As soon as the big guns opened on her, the British BB did not hit at least once,

This was also a period of time however when PoW was making rather significant course corrections and the number of guns she had available declined precipitously.

nor did it straddle the enemy. It put up a smoke screen and ran away.

She retired until she got more of her main battery back on line. There are some reports by the way that suggest she did indeed get a straddle after the destruction of Hood.

I don't share your perspective of "British victory", neither in tactical nor on the strategical plane. The "path to victory" only started after Bismarck's rudder was jamed.

The damage from PoWs hits forced Bismarck to abandon her raiding cruise. At that point it's at least a minor British victory especially as she must head for Brest. At that point she's subject to interception by the British as happened historically but even in Brest she's subject to air attack as were the twins whch were under repair almost continuously until the "Channel Dash". There is little reason to believe that Bismarck would have done any better there. In addition the chance of any sort of successful raid continue to decline after this point and drop preciptiously in December of 41.