Did Bismarck offer surrender?

[RF]

RF, read what I write. I said the Italian Navy was untrained in night fighting, not the RN. As to evidence or proof, my opinion is good enough for me. You have no obligation to agree whatsoever. BISMARCK did not surrender and if you can prove that she did, do so.

Before you continue your display of arrogance I suggest that you care to read what I write. I never suggested that Bismarck surrendered, on the contrary I made it clear that there was no evidence of that happening and that the accounts suggesting that there was were only published recently, over fifty years after the event and not far closer to the time where a more accurate contemporaneous viewpoint can be obtained.

[Glasisch]

.

And, even if he was incompetent (which he wasn't) that doens't mean that he was a coward. I think that those comanding officers on Bismarck were brave guys.

Agreed.

I agree with You bith - the information about a black flag is for me a very bad joke.
Regards

[yellowtail3]

The signalmen were prob dead, the signal shack prob shot off, and flag bags ruined... might not have been able to haul down colors if they could have.

Me? I'd have hauled them down & scuttled, if able, once there was nothing else to do but sink.

[RF]

Why haul the flag down? That could be interpreted as surrender.

No, the practice is to let the ship sink with flag flying.

[lwd]

Well if you can't shoot back halling down the flags so they stop shooting at you isn't a bad option.

As far as the "black flag" goes I have seen it suggested that what was seen may well have been the soot and smoke darkened battle ensign. Especially when one considers that the seeing was far from ideal.

[Karl Heidenreich]

However a lot of people would love this story, because will become a demerit to Bismarck's heroic last stand, there is not a single thread of evidence on it. Not the German survivors nor the British present sugest such a thing.

[frontkampfer]

IMHO-Its a way for someone to captitalize on a known event with an conspirancy style theory with little to none documentary evidence. Who stands to gain on promoting this theory? Follow the money!

[Djoser]

Of course the commanders did not try to surrender--this is probably just another attempt to hype up sales for a book of questionable veracity.

However...

I have done pretty well for myself in a number of situations where i had to deal with several guys trying to f*ck with me pretty seriously. I even have a scar or two to show for it.

But from what I've read of the final minutes on board that ship, with guys everywhere being literally ripped to bloody shreds, body parts strewn across the burning decks in great profusion, nothing left that would shoot back, etc., etc.? I'd have been yelling as loud as I could for them to stop shooting, that I gladly gave up!!

[lwd]

However a lot of people would love this story, because will become a demerit to Bismarck's heroic last stand,

I'm not at all convinced that that's the case. For one thing I don't see that it has any impact at all on the bravery of the crew or the status of Bismarck's final hours. Once there is no way to fight back there is absolutely nothing wrong with requesting that your opponent cease fire. Of course there are also pretty significant questions of whether anything like it occured and if so what.

there is not a single thread of evidence on it. Not the German survivors nor the British present sugest such a thing.

From the thread over on the axis history channel several (2 or 3 from what I recall) British sailors are reported to have seen it. I believe they are named so there is some evidence. Of course at this point it could be a whole range of things:
1) They didn't really see it they just made things up.
2) They saw something and the author missinterpreted what they said.
3) They saw something but after all this time misremembered exactly what they saw.
4) They saw something but missinterpreted what they saw.
5) There report is completely accurate.

5 is nigh on impossible. If there were several vetrans who reported seeing it then I am inclided to believe 1 also has a very low probability. Note that 5 or something very close to it is the only one that indicates any possiblity of an attempt to surrender and even that could have been the act of an individual rather than a decision by Bismarck's command staff.

[tommy303]

It may have been a combination of various things--memory getting confused with other events, etc. The hoisting of a black flag by Bismarck would have been fairly meaningless in 1941, and certainly would not have conveyed a desire for cease fire; the Hague Convention specifically calls for a white flag for both surrender and temporary truce. In 1945, the British stipulated that U-boats sailing to British or allied ports to surrender following Germany's capitulation were to hoist a black flag. The precise reason for a black flag is unknown to me, but may have had to do with the protocol that as Germany had surrendered, U-boats at sea were no longer considered active combatant units and so not covered by the Hague convention's white flag rule. Whatever the reason, the German U-boat crews looked upon being ordered to fly a black flag as an insult and the lowering of their status by the British to that of pirates.

[wadinga]

Hello Tommy,

No need to get aeriated about the BLACK flag since there was an option:

The official instruction is on the u boat net site
ANNEXURE 'A'
SURRENDER OF GERMAN "U" BOAT FLEET

To all "U" Boats at sea:
Carry out the following instructions forthwith which have been given by the Allied Representatives

Surface immediately and remain surfaced.
Report immediately in P/L your position in latitude and longitude and number of your "U" Boat to nearest British, US, Canadian or Soviet coast W/T station on 500 kc/s (600 metres) and to call sign GZZ 10 on one of the following high frequencies: 16845 - 12685 or 5970 kc/s.
Fly a large black or blue flag by day.
Burn navigation lights by night.
Jettison all ammunition, remove breachblocks from guns and render torpedos safe by removing pistols. All mines are to be rendered safe.
Make all signals in P/L.
Follow strictly the instructions for proceeding to Allied ports from your present area given in immediately following message.
Observe strictly the orders of Allied Representatives to refrain from scuttling or in any way damaging your "U" Boat.
2. These instructions will be repeated at two-hour intervals until further notice.

http://www.uboat.net/articles/70.html

and since the BLUE flag has nothing to do with pirates at all, there was obviously no insult intended, or should be taken.

We British have a reputation for favouring the underdog, and a number of RN eyewitnesses said they were ashamed of continuing to batter the helpless, toothless shambles that Bismarck had become. However they state that that the Kriegsmarine War Flag continued to fly. As we have heard, below the armoured deck everything was perfectly fine, and how could Tovey or anybody else know when some Maschinegefreiter might fix the steering problem and away their quarry would go? She must be sunk if the War Flag still flew. It is strange this particular report has come to light so conveniently for a new book launch, but then, who can say?

It seems to me extremely unlikely that Bismarck officially tried to surrender, Lutjens and everybody else aboard had sworn: "I swear by God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath." Lutjens' last messages make the position quite clear:

"Time Segment 21:40 ......We will fight until these the last shot is expended. Long live the Fuerher!

and the following day Time Segment 00:32

To the Fuerher of the German Reich, Adolf Hitler: We shall fight to the last man with confidence in you, my Fuerher, and with rock solid trust in Germany's victory!

He was prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice of vessel and crew for the cause, whereas some time later Von Paulus made a very different decision in a similarly hopeless situation. Perhaps he lacked faith.

All the best

wadinga

[costas]

It seems that Bismarck had a secret weapon onboard, a revenue generator that still works fine after all these years.
One day Bismarck will overtake the Titanic in celebrity ship status.

Before one can argue whether the surrender story is true or even believable, could someone please help me to
understand the situation on the 27th May as it relates to the BS final battle and the surrender/not surrender?

* Any evidence of the 'other seaman'?
* Was Tommy Byers a gunnery observer in the battleship HMS Rodney on the 27th May? (newspapers)
* How many Gunnery observers were onboard Rodney on that day?
* How common is that Gunnery observers can understand Morse code flash signals and semaphore flags?
* Where exactly Tommy Byers was during BS's final battle when he saw the surrender signals? what was the advantage
of his battle station over the other Gunnery observers? BTW, did the other Gunnery observers notice anything?
* There were so many ships near BS that day, has anyone else observed Morse signals and semaphore flags signalling
'surrender' or something that could be interpreted as such?

Perhaps some high ranking officer in Bismarck had decided that the ship should surrender.
Bismarck fired the last salvo at 0931, demolition charges exploded at around 1000, fire stopped at 1016.
If any signal was sent (surrender or other) then it should be after 0931.
* Was it possible to hoist flags and flash Morse codes during that 36min time interval?

Perhaps someone can give convincing answers to all the above questions or even prove that really there were some
similar signals, after all Tommy Byers was an eyewitness.
Does any of the BS survivors mention something like: "...some officer tried to signal surrender..." ?
Does any of these authors Baron, L. Kennedy, R. Grenfell and B.B. Schofield mention anything about intentions or
possible evidence that could be read as surrender?
.

[RF]

Well, neither Kennedy or Grenfell make any mention of Bismarck attempting to surrender in their books.

Kennedy moreover was an eye-witness on the destroyer HMS Electra, which was not involved directly in the final action against Bismarck and so would not have been distracted by his combat duties from observing Bismarck closely.

[paulcadogan]

Kennedy moreover was an eye-witness on the destroyer HMS Electra

No, it was the Tartar (Electra was part of Hood & PoW's escort and rescued Hood's suvivors - remember?)

Tartar and Mashona ran low on fuel and left the battle area shortly before Bismarck went down.

[RF]

Yes indeed, I stand corrected.

I believe the destroyers withdrew at the same time as KGV and Rodney, so they would have seen the whole of the gunnery action?