Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

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Mostlyharmless
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Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by Mostlyharmless »

What if Bismarck suffers less catastrophic torpedo damage on 26th May 1941, so that her speed is reduced to about 11 to 12 kn but she is able to steer? Let us also suppose that Vian's destroyers do not score a torpedo hit during the following night.

Bismarck was about 550 miles (470 kn) from Brest at 2105. King George V and Rodney closed with Bismarck at 0800 (sunrise) on 27th May, following quite closely Bismark's original track. If Bismarck had been moving at 12 kn, she would have been a further 150 miles (130 kn) away towards Brest (i.e. 400 miles from Brest). If KGV and Rodney remain in company at Rodney's 20-21 kn. and nothing changes the speed of any of the battleships, they can overtake Bismarck after midnight, about 100 miles from Brest. Naturally KGV and Renown can overtake Bismark sooner but it is not obvious that this gives a huge advantage as KGV must burn fuel faster at higher speed. During daylight on the 27th May, aircraft from Ark Royal will attack Bismark, Luftwaffe Bf-110s may attempt to defend Bismarck and German bombers will try to attack the British ships. During the night of 27th-28th May, British destroyers and cruisers may attack with torpedoes before the battleships engage. Finally, after any action, the British ships will be short of fuel and will probably be attacked again by the Luftwaffe early on the 28th May.

What are the experts predictions on the likely results?
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by Kyler »

Bismarck is still sunk, if such events had transpired instead of what really happened. The RN; if not the entire British Armed Forces, were out for blood. The Bismarck would have been sunk by RN in a similar way it was sunk in history. Though with the Luftwaffe flying overhead, and undoubtly U-Boats around maybe a few of the RN surface units have been sunk or damaged.
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by Legend »

So in this scenario Bismarck gets closer to Brest... but the Royal Navy still catches up. In the midst of the fighting Bismarck gets beaten into a pulp.... as she did... but U-Boats and Stukas intercept the RN before they can leave the scene. Lets imagine that what happened to PoW in the end happens to KGV, Rodney gets pummeled, and the other smaller warships are forced to retreat. That close to France would the crew not abandon ship and not scuttle? I know the Normandie Docks were disabled at the time, and her chances of going out hunting again would be slim considering her engines were partially damaged in combat. For the damage to the TDS could they send divers down and weld plates over the holes... increasing speed again?
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by RF »

In this scenario the Bismarck will get clean away, as Tovey cannot approach France that close that far into 27 May and still maintain high speed and then get home again.
KGV only just got home as it was.
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by hammy »

So Bismark gets back to France having had at least the fright of her life , more probably with additional heavy projectile damage , followed shortly by Prinz Eugen limping in with iffy engines .
Net result , one aging British Capital unit sunk , and a bit of panic spread around the North Atlantic Convoys for a week , British Capital ships pulled away from the Crete battle .
A disappointment then , despite the propaganda triumph .

What next ? RAF attacks hard , as against the twins , and at the least Bismark gets some bomb scars , probably some damage .
Four candidates for the Channel dash instead of three , Bismark probably gets some more damage in getting home .
Big protracted refit follows , then what ? joins Tirpitz in the North .
British beef up the home fleet in response so there are battlesquadrons covering the Russian run . I dont see much change from the course of events as they unfolded .
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by lwd »

RF wrote:In this scenario the Bismarck will get clean away, as Tovey cannot approach France that close that far into 27 May and still maintain high speed and then get home again.
KGV only just got home as it was.
Weren't there some British subs between Bismack and the French ports? At 10-12 knots they would have a pretty good chance of intercepting her I would think. Especially if she's been spotted and is being tracked.
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by Mostlyharmless »

Ark Royal's aircraft will surely attack Bismarck on the 27th May and given the low speed they have a good chance of scoring multiple hits. If Ark Royal sinks Bismarck alone, it may change the away everyone thinks before Pearl Harbor. However, if the Luftwaffe is competent, they can get some Bf-110s to Bismarck from dawn, which can stay at least two hours (Bf-110s could escort German bombers from Norway to near Newcastle during the Battle of Britain which is 600 miles).

Tovey would have been told to take the KGV to Plymouth after the battle which is only 200 miles from my suggested battle 100 miles west of Brest. However, KGV and Rodney may not be able to make their best speed under air attack. KGV should be very hard to sink by bombing although hits fore and aft might cause serious flooding. Bombs near the funnels might cause some loss of power. There is also the possibility of a very close near miss as suggested in Shattered Sword to explain the damage to Akagi's rudder. Rodney similarly has a very strong armour deck but she is slightly more vulnerable as the citadel is only 55% of length and a very unlucky hit by a heavy semi-armour piercing bomb at the waterline could cause serious problems if it enters the ship and deflects downwards off the internal belt before exploding (see reports on damage to Ise and Hyuga).

My view is that much depends on the efficiency and available strength of the Luftwaffe although submarines on both sides might also have a decisive effect.
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by José M. Rico »

Mostlyharmless wrote:What if Bismarck suffers less catastrophic torpedo damage on 26th May 1941, so that her speed is reduced to about 11 to 12 kn but she is able to steer?
Ok, this is a "What if", but, how is Bismarck supposed to have her speed reduced to only 12 knots? Flooding surely would affect speed but, how many torpedo hits would be required to put several boiler/turbine rooms out of action? Keep in mind that if Bismarck did only 7 knots historically, it was becasue she was heading towards the enemy and not because she couldn't go faster.
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by lwd »

José M. Rico wrote:
Mostlyharmless wrote:What if Bismarck suffers less catastrophic torpedo damage on 26th May 1941, so that her speed is reduced to about 11 to 12 kn but she is able to steer?
Ok, this is a "What if", but, how is Bismarck supposed to have her speed reduced to only 12 knots? Flooding surely would affect speed but, how many torpedo hits would be required to put several boiler/turbine rooms out of action? Keep in mind that if Bismarck did only 7 knots historically, it was becasue she was heading towards the enemy and not because she couldn't go faster.
Perhpas damage to the props or shafts? Although this might take multiple torps. ....
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by Bgile »

12 knots is very slow and almost implies the ship is almost at the point of sinking. I suspect she could make 18 knots on one screw if the rudders were intact.
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by Paul L »

If the Bismarck is within 160 km when the String bags attack ,then the LW would shoot them out of the sky before they got there. They were still competant at that point in the war. If every RN RAF asset is out for blood then its likely so too is every KM/LW asset out to protect the Bismarck. At 160km distance it is enough to sortie Zestorer & Uboot flotillas to harrass and drive off RN assets. by 1941 the RN already lost 3 carriers and several battleships all to UBoats. I don't think they are going to risk losing anymore.

Re Bismarck speed. Prior to the Stringbag attack the Bismarck speed ranged from 20-26knots at differing times. The torepdo attacks jammed rudder and caused severe flooding that combined with violent maneuvering to avoid more torpedos reduced the ships speed to 7-12 knots. But such effecst are usually temporary while repair parties makeshift solutions to the damage. Most other references to speed after this is adjusting RPM and speed to 7-12knots inorder to steer the ship . I would assume that barring the rudder hit, damage repair parties could have restored speed to reasonable level [20knots?] soon enough.

Anyone heard anything definitive or is it just opinions of so called internet experts?
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by dunmunro »

RF wrote:In this scenario the Bismarck will get clean away, as Tovey cannot approach France that close that far into 27 May and still maintain high speed and then get home again.
KGV only just got home as it was.
The RN had a plan (and secret agreement from Dublin) to refuel via tanker in an Irish port, but opted not to use it as KGV and Rodney had sufficient fuel to make port in Scotland. Tovey thus had more options than he used historically, in terms of extending KGV's range.
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by Legend »

hammy wrote: Four candidates for the Channel dash instead of three...
Um... the whole point of Operation Cerebus was to get the surviving surface combatants back to German waters, only after Bismarck's sinking and Hitler's ranting of her loss that heavy warships were no longer allowed on forward deployments. I am confident if Bismarck got back to Brest afloat, things would have been very different:

1. They would have continued harassing and sinking convoys and merchant ships

2. They would have possibly been joined by Tirpitz, if they wanted to move her forward too, though they may have been content with her in nearby waters sinking Russian convoys.

3. Operation Overlord (D-Day) is in jepoardy due to a potential interdiction strike from the Bs, Sc, Gn, Hp, PE, and any of the Deuchland class that may have been within attack distance. The Allies would have had air support, but hopefully Goering would have had the sense to send some 180's to take out the Swordfish and whatever else could carry torpedoes and bombs, for those beautiful ship's sakes alone.
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by hammy »

Legend wrote:
Um... the whole point of Operation Cerebus was to get the surviving surface combatants back to German waters, only after Bismarck's sinking and Hitler's ranting of her loss that heavy warships were no longer allowed on forward deployments. I am confident if Bismarck got back to Brest afloat, things would have been very different:
The strategic withdrawal of the heavy units to Germany via "Cerberus" was in accordance with the German "Fleet in Being" policy , and in response to the constant air attacks on the ships by the RAF , which sooner or later would succeed , and the recognition , following the Bismark episode , that the heavy units were highly unlikely to get out into the Atlantic without being detected within hours , and that superior forces would be very likely to intercept them promptly . Bismark was very lucky in the Denmark strait , the final engagement against Rodney + KGV shows what one could expect in the normal run of things .
Had Bismark not suffered the Rudder damage , and had got into Brest , she would still have the repairs required from the earlier damage to mend , and anything else done to her on her run to safety , and the ongoing risk of air attack damage as suffered by the other three .
The German Naval staff study of the Operation would surely have concluded that the risk of losing capital units in any further foray against the supply lines was very high , and I think would have opted , as usual , for maintaining the "Fleet in Being" , ie as a conserved ongoing threat , not to be risked except in the occurence of a favourable set of circumstances .

Did Hitler rant about her loss ? I think he was fatalistic about the low chances the small Kriegsmarine stood against a vastly bigger RN , and when he fulfilled German obligations to Japan and declared war on the US seven months later he made the odds impossible , for the USN Atlantic fleet battleships would also be brought into play .

You would not expect the RN Home Fleet to sit in Scapa Flow when the surface threat was in Brest , so I think the Battle Squadrons would come south . Plymouth would be good but prone to air attack , so I think probably the old station of Milford Haven would be used .

How would Tirpitz get to Brest ? Either by a lone Channel Dash in reverse , or the long way round through the Northern Gaps again to get out into the Atlantic -- a sort of Bismark encore . How would you assess her chances as a German naval staff officer studying these options ? Pretty Hairy is the short answer .

I dont think your point about "Overlord" is good or credible .
Three whole years later , this German battlesquadron is still in one piece ( think Lancasters dropping tallboys by that stage )
And is able to get out of a ( heavily mined in the run up to the invasion ) outer Rade , round Ushant and into the Channel to intervene ?
The allies would be watching like cats outside a mousehole and would simply have diverted some of their huge air superiority to this juicy target , and posted a strong battlefleet west of the invasion traffic .
" From Ushant to Scilly is (just) thirtyfive Leagues " = 105 land miles , like the shanty says .
It would be the Surigao strait again .
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Re: Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

Post by Bgile »

Legend wrote: 2. They would have possibly been joined by Tirpitz, if they wanted to move her forward too, though they may have been content with her in nearby waters sinking Russian convoys.
Just how many convoys did Tirpitz sink?
3. Operation Overlord (D-Day) is in jepoardy due to a potential interdiction strike from the Bs, Sc, Gn, Hp, PE, and any of the Deuchland class that may have been within attack distance. The Allies would have had air support, but hopefully Goering would have had the sense to send some 180's to take out the Swordfish and whatever else could carry torpedoes and bombs, for those beautiful ship's sakes alone.
How well do you think they and their dock areas would do with a couple 1,000 plane bomber raids, escorted by total air superiority from even short range fighters like Spitfire based in England? Schweinfurt was hard. Brest would be a cakewalk. To suggest any of them would be around by D-Day in other than scrap condition I think might be stretching things a bit.
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