Less seriously torpedo damaged Bismarck

[lwd]

If the Bismarck is within 160 km when the String bags attack ,then the LW would shoot them out of the sky before they got there. They were still competant at that point in the war.

That's by no means certain. I think you uderestimate the difficulties of flying CAP over a ship particularly for pilots lacking the training. First of al they have to find the Bismarck. Once found they have to spot and be in postion to intercept the incoming raids. Particularly if it's a first light raid and there is cloud cover neither of the above are at all certain.

At 160km distance it is enough to sortie Zestorer & Uboot flotillas to harrass and drive off RN assets.

How many are available? Germany never had a lot of destroyers and after the Norway campaign even fewer. Do they have enough to even impact the RN?

by 1941 the RN already lost 3 carriers and several battleships all to UBoats. I don't think they are going to risk losing anymore.

Since they did your opinion seems counter factual.

Re Bismarck speed. Prior to the Stringbag attack the Bismarck speed ranged from 20-26knots at differing times. The torepdo attacks jammed rudder and caused severe flooding that combined with violent maneuvering to avoid more torpedos reduced the ships speed to 7-12 knots. But such effecst are usually temporary while repair parties makeshift solutions to the damage. Most other references to speed after this is adjusting RPM and speed to 7-12knots inorder to steer the ship . I would assume that barring the rudder hit, damage repair parties could have restored speed to reasonable level [20knots?] soon enough.

Anyone heard anything definitive or is it just opinions of so called internet experts?

It was mentioned in the previous page that the reason Bismarck wasn't going any faster was the steering problems and the direction of travel. Historically if she had freed her rudder it seems likely that she would have been capable of over 12 knots. This scenario however assumes that instead of rudder problems something has cut her speed to 12 knots. What could do this is problematic. I've suggested damage to props and shaft but that might well take two "lucky" hits rather than one.

[Paul L]

That's by no means certain. I think you uderestimate the difficulties of flying CAP over a ship particularly for pilots lacking the training. First of al they have to find the Bismarck. Once found they have to spot and be in postion to intercept the incoming raids. Particularly if it's a first light raid and there is cloud cover neither of the above are at all certain.

How many are available? Germany never had a lot of destroyers and after the Norway campaign even fewer. Do they have enough to even impact the RN?

by 1941 the RN already lost 3 carriers and several battleships all to UBoats. I don't think they are going to risk losing anymore.

Since they did your opinion seems counter factual.

Re Bismarck speed. Prior to the Stringbag attack the Bismarck speed ranged from 20-26knots at differing times. The torepdo attacks jammed rudder and caused severe flooding that combined with violent maneuvering to avoid more torpedos reduced the ships speed to 7-12 knots. But such effecst are usually temporary while repair parties makeshift solutions to the damage. Most other references to speed after this is adjusting RPM and speed to 7-12knots inorder to steer the ship . I would assume that barring the rudder hit, damage repair parties could have restored speed to reasonable level [20knots?] soon enough.

Anyone heard anything definitive or is it just opinions of so called internet experts?

It was mentioned in the previous page that the reason Bismarck wasn't going any faster was the steering problems and the direction of travel. Historically if she had freed her rudder it seems likely that she would have been capable of over 12 knots. This scenario however assumes that instead of rudder problems something has cut her speed to 12 knots. What could do this is problematic. I've suggested damage to props and shaft but that might well take two "lucky" hits rather than one.

The RN didn't risk such capital ships within 100nm of the European coastline until much later in the war when the LW had been crushed.


The Bismarck repair parties would resolve temporary solutions to whatever damage, unless its permanent as was the rudder damage, which is not specified in this scenario. As some one already pointed out on just one prop, Bismarck should be able to do 18 knots, so we are forced to assume 12 knots is only temporary. Such repairs are SOP for any capital ship.

Germany had lots of Zerstörer & UBoot flotillas in 1941 and most operated out of France/Norway, more than enough to mount attacks. And merely the threat of Uboats would have forced the RN to call off the pursuit. Besides, most histories work from the assumption that once Bismarck got to within 100 nm, she'd be home free. It was the lack of directional control and failure to follow through on doctrine that killed the Bismarck, not her speed.

Germany had 15 x Zerstörer of which 14 were operational in mid 1941. The location of these was ; 2 in Norway ; 4 in France & 8 in Germany. The 4 in France should be available to sortie, while 5 in Germany had just sortie to help the Bismarck break out and could be made available if needed after refueling. In addition there were 10 Torpedoboot 1923/24; of which 8 were operation and reportedly 5 where in France; 1 in Norway & 2 in Germany.

So roughly 14 destroyers could be made available in 3-4 flotillas to react and help shepherd the Bismarck to Brest.

Germany had 100 Uboats at this time but only 30 were at sea of which roughly 22 German Uboats may have been operational in the North Atlantic during the month of May, not sure how many could have been on patrol in the vicinity of French waters. But standard rotation would have meant another 25-30 should be in French/Norwegian Ports getting ready to sortie to replace the 30 already at sea. Its entirely possible that up to 20 of these Uboats could have been scrambled to help the Bismarck.

Underestimating the LW in 1941 would be very bad form indeed. As I recall in Crete at about this very same time, they were operating 400-600km from mainland and gave the RN a beating they would not forget for a long time.

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2RN09-194101.htm

[Bgile]

The US found CAP to be a difficult proposition, and they worked on it very hard for several years during the Pacific war. They eventually had destroyers based many miles ahead of a TF to direct fighter intercept against incoming attacks, and even that wasn't foolproof. One problem was accurate determination of altitude. Even with good specialized fighter direction you can send them to the same coordinates as the incoming attack and if you are at the wrong altitude they often can't find the enemy. Early in the war it usually wasn't that effective, with some notable exceptions like the slaughter of Torpedo Eight at Midway, but of course that facilitated clean attacks by the dive bombers minutes later.

Considering all this, I think it's unlikely the Germans could mount an effective CAP by flying Me110s out from France. For one thing, CAP is usually banned from around your own ships because of friendly fire. Some fighters ignore that, but some also get shot down. Someone else also pointed out that some of them would get lost even trying to find Bismarck. Some would probably find the British instead and get shot down by British flak.

[hammy]

Ship recognition by Flying crews did tend to be Bl*****g awful , but what else can you expect from very young men who have no ship-knowledge ?
Look at what had occurred earlier with the Fleet air arm Swordfish crews trying to hit Sheffield in mistake for Bismark . You only have to glance at the silhouettes and colour schemes to see what a cock-up that was , and those were supposed to be Naval Aviators .
And the shipborne AA gunners tended to be equally trigger-happy , ..... If its up there , FIRE ! !

The Luftwaffe air operation "Thunderbolt" to cover the channel dash later on was a very intricate plan , carefully worked out , and even then there was some friendly fire . An ad-hoc effort organised at short notice would have produced some sporadic air cover , some indecisive clashes , and an inability to distinguish friend from foe if the planes kept a prudent distance from the ships , and a lot of confusion .

I think the only way to try to do it would be by using the big maritime recon aircraft in the role of "master bombers" to try to direct the fighter cover as a sort of airborne fighter direction post , but the radio coms would be problematic to set up in the time available .

[lwd]

...
The RN didn't risk such capital ships within 100nm of the European coastline until much later in the war when the LW had been crushed.

Did they have any incentive that would compare to this? In any case I thought I have read of several "atillery raids" that British capital units made vs France. My impression is that they were prior to 44.

The Bismarck repair parties would resolve temporary solutions to whatever damage, unless its permanent as was the rudder damage, which is not specified in this scenario. As some one already pointed out on just one prop, Bismarck should be able to do 18 knots, so we are forced to assume 12 knots is only temporary. Such repairs are SOP for any capital ship.

Sorry that's not the scenario and there is no reason to assume such. If the operable shaft was damaged for instance it could easily be not repairable at sea.

Germany had lots of Zerstörer & UBoot flotillas in 1941 and most operated out of France/Norway, more than enough to mount attacks.
... Germany had 15 x Zerstörer of which 14 were operational in mid 1941. The location of these was ; 2 in Norway ; 4 in France & 8 in Germany. The 4 in France should be available to sortie, while 5 in Germany had just sortie to help the Bismarck break out and could be made available if needed after refueling. In addition there were 10 Torpedoboot 1923/24; of which 8 were operation and reportedly 5 where in France; 1 in Norway & 2 in Germany.

15 is hardly lots. The ones in Germany could probably not have sortied in time and would have had to pass through the channel in any case. This would only add incentive to the RN and RAF to attack.

Germany had 100 Uboats at this time but only 30 were at sea of which roughly 22 German Uboats may have been operational in the North Atlantic during the month of May, not sure how many could have been on patrol in the vicinity of French waters. But standard rotation would have meant another 25-30 should be in French/Norwegian Ports getting ready to sortie to replace the 30 already at sea. Its entirely possible that up to 20 of these Uboats could have been scrambled to help the Bismarck.
...

Is it? I don't think you are going to see that many U-boats sortied on a days notice. Even if they they are going to have to cruse on the surface to link up with Bismarck. Not exactly a save thing to do.

[RF]

In this scenario the Bismarck will get clean away, as Tovey cannot approach France that close that far into 27 May and still maintain high speed and then get home again.
KGV only just got home as it was.

Weren't there some British subs between Bismack and the French ports? At 10-12 knots they would have a pretty good chance of intercepting her I would think. Especially if she's been spotted and is being tracked.

There certainly is - but do they have much chance of sinking Bismarck? If the Germans were canny, they would anticipate that and have anti-sub escorts and U-boats ready to turn those British subs from cats into the mice.....

[RF]

Ark Royal's aircraft will surely attack Bismarck on the 27th May and given the low speed they have a good chance of scoring multiple hits. If Ark Royal sinks Bismarck alone, it may change the away everyone thinks before Pearl Harbor. However, if the Luftwaffe is competent, they can get some Bf-110s to Bismarck from dawn, which can stay at least two hours (Bf-110s could escort German bombers from Norway to near Newcastle during the Battle of Britain which is 600 miles).

The Swordfish could get a good half dozen hits but I can't see them sinking Bismarck on their own. And if the CV comes too close to France it could come under Luftwaffe attack.

[RF]

So Bismark gets back to France having had at least the fright of her life , more probably with additional heavy projectile damage , followed shortly by Prinz Eugen limping in with iffy engines .
Net result , one aging British Capital unit sunk , and a bit of panic spread around the North Atlantic Convoys for a week , British Capital ships pulled away from the Crete battle .
A disappointment then , despite the propaganda triumph .

What next ? RAF attacks hard , as against the twins , and at the least Bismark gets some bomb scars , probably some damage .
Four candidates for the Channel dash instead of three , Bismark probably gets some more damage in getting home .
Big protracted refit follows , then what ? joins Tirpitz in the North .
British beef up the home fleet in response so there are battlesquadrons covering the Russian run . I dont see much change from the course of events as they unfolded .

Two differences not considered in your post hammy.

One, Hitler doesn't issue his ban on German warships going into the open Atlantic.

Two, Raeder could persuade Hitler to use Vichy French bases in west Africa as a bolthole for German ships, such as Dakar. This is what Hitler should have done from 1940 onwards.

The strategic opportunities were there - for a savvy Fuhrer to take. Only Hitler didn't measure up to the job.

[RF]

The RN had a plan (and secret agreement from Dublin) to refuel via tanker in an Irish port, but opted not to use it as KGV and Rodney had sufficient fuel to make port in Scotland. Tovey thus had more options than he used historically, in terms of extending KGV's range.

I can't see Devalera agreeing to this, given his IRA links. He didn't take any action against the Germans, even when the Luftwaffe bombed Dublin in mistake for Belfast. The German embassy in Dublin remained open right up to VE Day.

[lwd]

Weren't there some British subs between Bismack and the French ports? At 10-12 knots they would have a pretty good chance of intercepting her I would think. Especially if she's been spotted and is being tracked.

There certainly is - but do they have much chance of sinking Bismarck? If the Germans were canny, they would anticipate that and have anti-sub escorts and U-boats ready to turn those British subs from cats into the mice.....

At that speed if a RN sub gets near Bismarck I'd say she has a pretty good chance of getting a hit. Does she have a good chance of sinking her? That's a harder question but each hit does damage and may well slow Bismarck down allowing other subs, ships, or planes an opertunity to strike. As for ASW escorts and U-boats the latter are goign to be out there but probably in pretty close to their historical locations there just doesn't seem to be the time or the communications to put many additional ones along Bismarck's route. In any case they are probably better postioned to try and stop RN capital units. As for the ASW escorts Germany doesn't have a huge number of them and there's going to be quite a few RAF planes in the air looking for German targets so the whole thing becomes pretty messy.

[lwd]

The RN had a plan (and secret agreement from Dublin) to refuel via tanker in an Irish port, but opted not to use it as KGV and Rodney had sufficient fuel to make port in Scotland. Tovey thus had more options than he used historically, in terms of extending KGV's range.

I can't see Devalera agreeing to this, given his IRA links. He didn't take any action against the Germans, even when the Luftwaffe bombed Dublin in mistake for Belfast. The German embassy in Dublin remained open right up to VE Day.

Well I've also heard that the British had a number of radar instalations in Ireland which would tend to support the existence of this sort of agreement.

[RF]

Again I am dubious of these reports.

From Churchill's writings it is clear the British need would have been the use of the ports and harbours of Eire. Radar facilities would be of lesser importance as the Germans did not make bombing attacks on Britain from the west. Radio direction finding stations maybe for U-boat radio traffic, but even here once British escorts had ''huff duff'' it would have been superfluous.
Not even the US could persuade Eire to make port facilities available to the Americans.

I have heard unsubstantiated reports that De Valera did make intimations to the Germans in 1940, through the IRA, that if Britain was invaded in 1940 Eire would do a deal with the Germans and annexe Northern Ireland by force. These reports also mention a Welsh nationalist fifth column which was also prepared to work for the Germans - if Hitler had been prepared to sanction an independent Wales. But again I am dubious of such reports - openly siding with Hitler would give Churchill the excuse to occupy Eire with British forces from Ulster, and De Valera would no doubt have been told that quite unnofficially.

[Bgile]

I don't know about WWII, but I know that today there is a HUGE difference between shipboard and shore based intercept sites. The shore sites have huge antennas, a large staff, and much more receiving and processing equipment than any ship would have. Additionally, when it comes to triangulation a shore site knows exactly where it is and that isn't necessarily true of a ship, especially back then.

[Paul L]

Even if the Irish allow British BB to be refueled from tankers operating out of Irish ports, that would take the better part of a day in which the BB is cruising along at very slow speed. The British Replenishment at sea was just not that good.

With regards LW airpower I would work from the assumption that rather than mount cap, they would go on the offensive just like around Crete at the very same time that Bismarck is being sunk.Attacking RN warships & battleships etc from 400km away. If they could do this off Crete, they could do the same off France.

With regards speed of Bismarck, every thing I've read indicates the Battleship speed was cut down in an vain effort to try to steer the wayward ship away from the pursiting RN assets. I have not seen any indication that had the steering problem not occured, the speed would still be 10-12 knots. I suspect that they could have achieved higher speeds if the steering problem had been solved, which historically it was not.

[lwd]

...With regards LW airpower I would work from the assumption that rather than mount cap, they would go on the offensive just like around Crete at the very same time that Bismarck is being sunk.Attacking RN warships & battleships etc from 400km away. If they could do this off Crete, they could do the same off France.

Isn't this pretty much what they did historically. I believe they sank at least one British DD returning to port after Bismarck sunk. However they aren't going to be intercepting swordfish attacking Bismarck if they aren't flying cap over it.

With regards speed of Bismarck, every thing I've read indicates the Battleship speed was cut down in an vain effort to try to steer the wayward ship away from the pursiting RN assets. I have not seen any indication that had the steering problem not occured, the speed would still be 10-12 knots. I suspect that they could have achieved higher speeds if the steering problem had been solved, which historically it was not.

I don't think any have dissagreed with this but it's rather irrelevant to this scenario which presupposes different damage.