Bismarck-Tirpitz Joint Maneuver?

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Bismarck-Tirpitz Joint Maneuver?

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

In Baron Müllenheim-Rechberg’s book there is only one sentence regarding a brief sighting of TIRPITZ in the Gulf of Danzig. In the KTB BISMARCK there is no mention of this sighting. Yet, a print signed by the late Walter Weintz states that BS and TP operated together for 6 hours on 18 May 1941! Is this simply artistic liberty? http://www.military-art.com/mall/more.php?ProdID=16592

There are only 4 hits in a “TIRPITZ” search in the KTB BS on 19 March 1941. My question: Is there any photo at all of the two battleships in close proximity? During Hitler’s visit on 5 May 1941 the ships were not alongside each other. I would assume that when the catapult was removed from the TIRPITZ and installed on the BISMARCK they must have been alongside the same dock (ca. 30 March 1941). Is there a photo of this exchange? I don’t have the KTB TP. It would be interesting to see what it says there in regard to the catapult exchange and the putative joint maneuver or brief meeting with Bismarck.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck-Tirpitz Joint Maneuver?

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Ulrich and all,

a very interesting post :wink:

Of course Bismarck and Tirpitz were together for some time on the Baltic sea, at Gdynia on April and May 1941.

YES Ulrich, there are photos of the 2 ships together in private collections, maybe one day they will be published.

There are also prints showing them at sea viewed from a Me109 flying on top of them.

Not only Bismarck and Tirpitz were together, but there were Lutzow, Nurnberg, Koln and Emden with them making joint exercise, plus the destroyers and support ships of course.

So the re-construction of this period is a very interesting and complex story, ..... believe me.

An input for you my friend, if you look into Prinz Eugen im Ersten Gefecht book, you will see 2 very interesting photos of Tirpitz and Lutzow taken on that period from Prinz Eugen directly at sea, so they were out together as obvious.
They are on page 14, on top is Tirpitz viewed from Prinz Eugen, and below Lutzow seen from Prinz Eugen.

Than on May 19th, 1941 you see Nurnberg at Seebanhof behind Prinz Eugen into Gotenhafen harbour.

On May 12th, 1941 you see Lutzow entering the harbour and Koln sailing out with Bismarck behind at Seebahnhof anchor platz as well.

It is enough to know when they were there,... especially Prinz Eugen in Gdynia of course ,.... and you can start your re-construction, ......

Enjoy,...... I like this,... and guess with top turret colour were they using during the joint exercises,......... :lol:

Ciao Antonio :D
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Bismarck-Tirpitz Joint Maneuver?

Post by Legend »

:shock: :shock: :shock: There are pics of the two together!?!?!?!?! That's amazing! How long until the copyrights run out and we can get our greedy hands on them? :pray: :dance: :pray: :dance:
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Re: Bismarck-Tirpitz Joint Maneuver?

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

Antonio: I heard that this photo is a fraud and has been withdrawn by the owners.

You would never dock 2 of these close together simply for security reasons. The Lützow photos are well known. But basically, I am simply wondering why such a momentous meeting of the two giants was not entered into their KTB's or used for propaganda purposes. Certainly, the meeting on 18 May 41 is absurd and does not fit any of the known facts. Also I think that entering the Seebahnhof pier required a pumping out of fuel to gain lighter draft. That would not have been done to both ships at the same time.

Prinz Eugen's KTB for that period does not contain the word "Tirpitz". On 19 May the ships were under way. As far as I can tell, TP and BS never met officially or conducted joint maneuvers.
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Re: Bismarck-Tirpitz Joint Maneuver?

Post by lwd »

Ulrich Rudofsky wrote:...You would never dock 2 of these close together simply for security reasons. ...
Are you sure? Note that at PH the US BBs were docked side to side. I don't know if they continued to do that after the war started.
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Re: Bismarck-Tirpitz Joint Maneuver?

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Ulrich and all,

YES, I know about the Me 109 top view story, that is the reason why I called it a print and not a photo, it is not a real photo but an electronic simulation done recently, so it is a print to me.

There are real photos showing BS and TP together at sea, I saw them so it is for real.

There were too many limitations into Gotenhafen harbour for water depth and space to think about anchoring side by side BS and TP at Seebahnhof, I would be really surprised to see a photo or an evidence of that being done at all.

In fact for May 5th, 1941 and AH review only Tirpitz was there while Bismarck was outside on open waters and AH used the Hela to reach her.

On May 18th 1941 no meeting between Bismarck and Tirpitz as far as I know.

Bismarck and Tirpitz did met before and conducted joint exercises, trust me, and there are photos of it.

One day everybody will know something more about it, just be patient, you know I am used to honour my promises with something good for everybody.

After having done all the work on the other KM main ships and having finished my studies on KM Light Cruisers and KM destroyers, now it is my Lovely Queen time again, .. and than Bismarck.

Ciao Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Bismarck-Tirpitz Joint Maneuver?

Post by RF »

If there was any interaction between Bismarck and Tirpitz at that time would there be any reason for it not being recorded in Bismarck's war diary?
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Re: Bismarck-Tirpitz Joint Maneuver?

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

It is/was mandatory to enter such events with a fair amount of detail into the war diaries of both ships as well as other ships that were involved in the exercise. The event would also have been extensively documented in the OKM records.

Also, such an historic event, if it occured, would have been a significant fact in books by several authors and eye-witness crew books and interviews. It is of interest that the last sentence in Baron M-B's book (end of chapter 3, Naval Institute version 1990) states that Tirpitz was briefly sighted on her own sea trials in the Gulf of Danzig and that it occured to him that they may form a task force. This sentence appears to be missing in the German version, Ullstein 1993.
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Re: Bismarck-Tirpitz Joint Maneuver?

Post by VeenenbergR »

Is there not the famous photo of Hitler visiting the Bismarck at Gotenhafen with Tirpitz mooring nearby alongside???
This photo shows Hitler from nearby onboard BS and TP visible on the background.
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Re: Bismarck-Tirpitz Joint Maneuver?

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

As far as I know the Tirpitz was anchored in the Goternhafen roads and had to be boarded from a launch.
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Re: Bismarck-Tirpitz Joint Maneuver?

Post by tameraire01 »

Lutjens wanted to wait till tirpitz was ready then both BS and TP would go out together. The shit storm in the admiralty would be worth watching, " confirm that Battleships Bismarck and Tirpitz have been spotted" Dudley Pound " shit shit SHIT"
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