HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

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Michael L
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HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Michael L »

Greetings all.
I wonder if anyone has found any hard evidence for the light cruiser HMS Neptune's involvement with the Bismarck 23-27 May 1941?
The reason I ask is that HMS Neptune was granted the Royal Navy Battle Honour 'BISMARCK' (23-27 May).
The basis for identifying if a ship was eligible for the Battle Honour ‘BISMARCK’ was to look at the Admiral’s Report for the Fleet Action. In this case, Admiral Tovey’s Report on the sinking of the Bismarck, 5 July 1941. In it, Admiral Tovey only mentions HMS Neptune once, effectively stating that on 21 May 1941 HMS Neptune was in Scapa Flow as part of the 2nd Cruiser Squadron, together with HMS Galatea, Aurora and Kenya. With cruiser HMS Hermione joining on 22 May 1941. However, when the 2nd Cruiser Squadron sailed near midnight 22/23 May Admiral Tovey lists the Home Fleet being as follows: “The King George V, Victorious, Galatea, Aurora, Kenya, Hermione and seven destroyers.” Apart form the one entry shown above, HMS Neptune is never mentioned again in Admiral Tovey’s Report.
The Naval History website (https://www.naval-history.net/index.htm) has pages for many British Ships, providing a chronological summary of their service. The following is an extract from the HMS Neptune page:
May On completion of post refit sea trials took passage to Scapa Flow.
3rd Joined 2nd Cruiser Squadron, Home Fleet and commenced work-up.
Deployed with ships of Squadron to escort. HM Battleship KING GEORGE V and HM
23rd Aircraft Carrier VICTORIOUS during search for German Battleship BISMARCK.
Took part in search operation after loss of HM Battlecruiser HOOD.
25th Detached with HMS VICTORIOUS and HM Cruiser NORFOLK.
Covered passage of military convoy WS8X against possible attack by BISMARCK.

However, when one examines the pages showing the chronologies for all the other ships that participated in the hunt for the Bismarck (23-27 May), none of them mention HMS Neptune. Especially the pages for HMS King George V, Victorious, Galatea, Aurora, Kenya and Hermione. These six ships’ pages all cross reference each other, but they never a mention of HMS Neptune (23-27 May).
I question the accuracy of the HMS Neptune Naval History website page. It claims ‘HMS Norfolk was detached on 25 May.’ As we know, this is not true because HMS Norfolk was present at the sinking of the Bismarck on 27 May. And claims that HMS Neptune; “Took part in search operation after loss of HM Battlecruiser HOOD.” I have not found any evidence supporting this claim.
While I have not been able to find any hard evidence, it is my suspicion that while HMS Neptune may have sailed at the same time as the Home Fleet at midnight 22/23 May 1941, it did so to conduct post-refit work-up trials off the Scottish coast, eventually arriving off Clyde where it then joined as an escort to WS 8X in early June 1941. As far as I can ascertain it did not take part in the Home Fleet action against the Bismarck. However, the fact remains HMS Neptune was granted the Royal Navy Battle Honour 'BISMARCK'.
Can anyone shed any light on this apparent anomaly please? Any hard evidence, one way or the other?
Kind regards, Michael L.
dunmunro
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Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by dunmunro »

Michael L wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 5:20 am Greetings all.
I wonder if anyone has found any hard evidence for the light cruiser HMS Neptune's involvement with the Bismarck 23-27 May 1941?
The reason I ask is that HMS Neptune was granted the Royal Navy Battle Honour 'BISMARCK' (23-27 May).
The basis for identifying if a ship was eligible for the Battle Honour ‘BISMARCK’ was to look at the Admiral’s Report for the Fleet Action. In this case, Admiral Tovey’s Report on the sinking of the Bismarck, 5 July 1941. In it, Admiral Tovey only mentions HMS Neptune once, effectively stating that on 21 May 1941 HMS Neptune was in Scapa Flow as part of the 2nd Cruiser Squadron, together with HMS Galatea, Aurora and Kenya. With cruiser HMS Hermione joining on 22 May 1941. However, when the 2nd Cruiser Squadron sailed near midnight 22/23 May Admiral Tovey lists the Home Fleet being as follows: “The King George V, Victorious, Galatea, Aurora, Kenya, Hermione and seven destroyers.” Apart form the one entry shown above, HMS Neptune is never mentioned again in Admiral Tovey’s Report.
The Naval History website (https://www.naval-history.net/index.htm) has pages for many British Ships, providing a chronological summary of their service. The following is an extract from the HMS Neptune page:
May On completion of post refit sea trials took passage to Scapa Flow.
3rd Joined 2nd Cruiser Squadron, Home Fleet and commenced work-up.
Deployed with ships of Squadron to escort. HM Battleship KING GEORGE V and HM
23rd Aircraft Carrier VICTORIOUS during search for German Battleship BISMARCK.
Took part in search operation after loss of HM Battlecruiser HOOD.
25th Detached with HMS VICTORIOUS and HM Cruiser NORFOLK.
Covered passage of military convoy WS8X against possible attack by BISMARCK.

However, when one examines the pages showing the chronologies for all the other ships that participated in the hunt for the Bismarck (23-27 May), none of them mention HMS Neptune. Especially the pages for HMS King George V, Victorious, Galatea, Aurora, Kenya and Hermione. These six ships’ pages all cross reference each other, but they never a mention of HMS Neptune (23-27 May).
I question the accuracy of the HMS Neptune Naval History website page. It claims ‘HMS Norfolk was detached on 25 May.’ As we know, this is not true because HMS Norfolk was present at the sinking of the Bismarck on 27 May. And claims that HMS Neptune; “Took part in search operation after loss of HM Battlecruiser HOOD.” I have not found any evidence supporting this claim.
While I have not been able to find any hard evidence, it is my suspicion that while HMS Neptune may have sailed at the same time as the Home Fleet at midnight 22/23 May 1941, it did so to conduct post-refit work-up trials off the Scottish coast, eventually arriving off Clyde where it then joined as an escort to WS 8X in early June 1941. As far as I can ascertain it did not take part in the Home Fleet action against the Bismarck. However, the fact remains HMS Neptune was granted the Royal Navy Battle Honour 'BISMARCK'.
Can anyone shed any light on this apparent anomaly please? Any hard evidence, one way or the other?
Kind regards, Michael L.
This is from Tovey's despatch:
5) The King George V (Captain Wilfred R. Patterson, C.V.O.; flying the flag of the Commander-in-Chief, Home Fleet), Galatea (Captain Edward W.B. Sim; flying the flag of Rear-Admiral Alban T.B. Curteis, C.B., Rear-Admiral Commanding, Second Cruiser Squadron), Aurora (Captain William G. Agnew), Kenya (Captain Michael M. Denny C.B.), Neptune (Captain Rory C. O'Conor) and the remaining three Home Fleet destroyers - Active (Lieutenant Commander Michael W. Tomkinson), Punjabi (Commander Stuart A. Buss, M.V.O.) and Nestor (Commander Conrad B. Alers-Hankey, D.S.C.) - were brought to short notice at Scapa. The Inglefield (Captain Percy Todd, DSO; Captain (D), Third Destroyer Flotilla) and Intrepid (Commander Roderick C. Gordon, DSO) arrived on 22nd May and joined this force, as did Hermione (Captain Geoffrey N. Oliver) on completing the repair of her fourth turret.
http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 9tovey.htm
However, looking through the Admiralty War Diaries I found a reference to Neptune being used as an AA guardship in the Irish Sea, probably around May 25.

I suspect that Tovey included Neptune in the Despatch, because she was actually used as part of the Bismarck Operation, after Bismarck was sunk:
In the wake of the Bismarck action, ‘Special Intelligence’ was employed to locate and destroy the German battleship’s network of supply ships. The first of these was Belchen, intercepted by Aurora and Kenya on 3 June 1941.
Bismarck and Prince Eugen Supply Ships Intercepted by the Use of ‘Special Intelligence’ Following Bismarck’s Sinking
3 June 1941 Belchen (T) * Intercepted by cruisers Aurora and Kenya
4 June Gonzenheim Chance interception by battleship Nelson and cruiser Neptune...

Raven, Alan. British Cruiser Warfare: The Lessons of the Early War, 1939–1941 (pp. 264-265).
Michael L
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Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Michael L »

Hi Mr Dunmunro.
You have precisely cited the one reference in Tovey's Report/Despatch of 5 July 1941 that I was referring to.
It is interesting that you found a reference in the Admiralty War Diaries to,
‘Neptune being used as an AA guardship in the Irish Sea, probably around 25 May.’
That fits in with the following summaries of HMS Neptune’s movements I found elsewhere in the Naval History website:
10 May 1941:
Destroyer BLANKNEY departed Scapa Flow at 0800 and met light cruiser NEPTUNE off Rattray Head. The two ships arrived at Scapa Flow at 1530. Light cruiser NEPTUNE arrived at Scapa Flow to work up. Light cruiser NEPTUNE departed Scapa Flow for the Clyde after working up on the 25th. She arrived the next day.
31 May 1941:
Aircraft carrier VICTORIOUS and light cruiser NEPTUNE escorted the convoy from 31 May to 5 June.
http://naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4105-32MAY01.htm
https://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4105-32MAY02.htm
As for your, ‘suspicion that Tovey included Neptune in the Despatch, because she was actually used as part of the Bismarck Operation, after Bismarck was sunk’, I beg to differ. The Battle Honour ‘BISMARCK’ has the specific qualifying dates of 23-27 May 1941. For example, as noted in Admiral Tovey’s Report/Despatch of 5 July 1941:
4) The King George V, Victorious, Galatea, Aurora, Kenya, Hermione and seven destroyers sailed from Scapa at 2245 [22 May] to cover the passages operating south of 62°. The Lance (Lieutenant Commander Ralph W.F. Northcott) was completed to return to Scapa with boiler trouble, …
I suspect that because of this, HMS Lance was not granted the Battle Honour ‘BISMARCK’ (23-27 May). And that is despite HMS Lance’s subsequent movements to try and catch-up with the Home Fleet:
Destroyer LANCE returned to Scapa Flow with boiler defects. The destroyer was able to depart again at 1315/23rd for Skaalefjord … .
LANCE refuelled in Iceland arriving and departing on the 26th.
LANCE departed Iceland for Londonderry …. refuelled on the 28th.
Battleships KING GEORGE V and RODNEY retired from the battle escorted by destroyers COSSACK, MAORI SIKH, ZULU, and JUPITER. By 1600/28th, eleven more destroyers joined the battleships. Destroyers SOMALI, ESKIMO, PUNJABI, NESTOR, INGLEFIELD, LANCE having departed Londonderry on the 28th to join. https://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4105-32MAY02.htm

Nonetheless, it wasn’t part of the hunt for the Bismarck. So it didn't qualify.

I respectfully submit that neither was HMS Neptune part of the hunt for the Bismarck. Participating in the mopping up of the German Supply Ships, whilst an important task, was done outside the qualifying period, 23-27 May. Also, if your suspicion were correct, HMS Nelson is mentioned in Admiral Tovey’s Report/Despatch of 5 July. And as you pointed out was involved in the mopping up with HMS Neptune:
4 June Gonzenheim Chance interception by battleship Nelson and cruiser Neptune...
If your suspicion were to hold true, then HMS Nelson should have been granted the Battle Honour ‘BISMARCK’ (23-27 May) too.
I am afraid that the information you have provided is not the hard evidence I am looking for supporting the granting of the Battle Honour ‘BISMARCK’ (23-27 May) to HMS Neptune. But the Admiralty War Diaries reference to ‘Neptune being used as an AA guardship in the Irish Sea, probably around 25 May’, possibly incrementally adds to what I consider to be this anomaly. My search for hard evidence goes on.
Kind regards, Michael L.
Byron Angel
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Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Byron Angel »

You might want to look into the following book:

On His Majesty's Service - Observations of the British Home Fleet from the
diary, reports, and letters of Joseph H. Wellings, Assistant U.S. Naval
Attache, London, 1940-1941


Note - This book can be freely PDF downloaded at the USNWC Historical Monograph website -
https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/histo ... ographs/5/

Wellings (a serving US naval officer) was aboard HMS Rodney on the day she and King George V intercepted and sank Bismarck. His book included detailed appendices, with copious detailed notes on the action, as well as a full transcript of RN communications and signal traffic as taken aboard HMS Rodney during the operation.

Checking the index for "HMS NEPTUNE", I found a reference to page 238, which states as follows -

Personal Diary 29 May - 6 Jun 1941
"Went aboard NEPTUNE (footnote 41) at night for 1-1/2 hours. Turned in at midnight. Heard lots of stories."

Footnote 41 reads as follows -
"Leander-class cruiser, 7175 tons, built 1933, lost 19 December 1941. She had also participated in the Bismarck operation."


Not a slam dunk, but maybe a lead to investigate some of the cruiser and perhaps destroyer elements taking part in the operation.

FWIW .....

B
dunmunro
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Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by dunmunro »

Byron Angel wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:01 pm You might want to look into the following book:

On His Majesty's Service - Observations of the British Home Fleet from the
diary, reports, and letters of Joseph H. Wellings, Assistant U.S. Naval
Attache, London, 1940-1941


Note - This book can be freely PDF downloaded at the USNWC Historical Monograph website -
https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/histo ... ographs/5/

Wellings (a serving US naval officer) was aboard HMS Rodney on the day she and King George V intercepted and sank Bismarck. His book included detailed appendices, with copious detailed notes on the action, as well as a full transcript of RN communications and signal traffic as taken aboard HMS Rodney during the operation.

Checking the index for "HMS NEPTUNE", I found a reference to page 238, which states as follows -

Personal Diary 29 May - 6 Jun 1941
"Went aboard NEPTUNE (footnote 41) at night for 1-1/2 hours. Turned in at midnight. Heard lots of stories."

Footnote 41 reads as follows -
"Leander-class cruiser, 7175 tons, built 1933, lost 19 December 1941. She had also participated in the Bismarck operation."


Not a slam dunk, but maybe a lead to investigate some of the cruiser and perhaps destroyer elements taking part in the operation.

FWIW .....

B
This is the complete entry:
Personal Diary, 29 May-6 June 1941
29 May- Arrived at Greenock at 0310-Stayed up until we anchored. Ashore at
1400 called Embassy said I was O.K. Back to ship at 1530. Went aboard Neptune*' at
night for 14 hours. Turned in at midnight. Heard lots of stories. Wonder when we will
get home.-I want to get started. However doubt if we will for a few days.
Michael L
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Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Michael L »

Thanks for that reference. I have not previously come across it:
On His Majesty's Service - Observations of the British Home Fleet from the diary, reports, and letters of Joseph H. Wellings, Assistant U.S. Naval Attaché, London, 1940-1941.
After reading Chapter 8, Battleship Bismarck and Boston, 21 May - 12 June 1941, I agree it isn't a slam dunk.
There is a signal that corroborates that when the Home Fleet sailed from Scarpa Flow at 2200/22 the cruisers of the 2nd Cruiser Squadron that left were Galatea, Kenya, Hermione and Aurora - and not Neptune.
The Map on page 192 (23-27 May) does not show any light cruisers, only capital ships, 8inch cruisers Norfolk, Suffolk and Dorsetshire.
The Map on page 195 (23-27 May) shows more ships, including 6inch cruisers and destroyers, but not Neptune. I did see that it shows HMS London with the note, 'Going to locate Bismarck's oiler'. Corroborated by signals on pages 199 and 211.
This aligns with Tovey's Report/Despatch of 5 July 1941, which mentions London twice as follows:
... London (Captain Reginald M. Servaes, CBE), who had been instructed by the Admiralty to search for an enemy tanker believed to be in the area 23/30'N, 42W. Force H, some 1,300 miles to the south-eastward, had been instructed by the Admiralty to steer to intercept the Bismarck from the southward.
...
The London was recalled from her search for a tanker and instructed to escort Convoy S.L. 75, which was approaching the area west of the Bay of Biscay.
Despite this detail - more than for HMS Neptune - HMS London was not granted the Battle Honour 'BISMARCK' (May 23-27).
Signal on page 208 again corroborates that the cruisers of the 2nd Cruiser Squadron involved at sea, in company with Victorious, were only Galatea, Kenya, Hermione and Aurora.
The only reference, as pointed out, to HMS Neptune is on page 238:
“Heard lots of stories.”, could mean anything, and not necessarily about the Bismarck.
Footnote 41, “She also participated in the Bismarck operation.”, could be a reference to assisting in the interception of the German supply ship Gonzenheim on 4 June – as previously identified.
This is the only reference to HMS Neptune in Wellings’ book. As stated, not a slam dunk.
It is worth noting that the book mentions HMS Edinburgh five times. At one point Wellings writes that due to a message sent at 1047/25 May, HMS Edinburgh was unfortunately sent on a “wild goose chase north and northwestward for about seven critical hours while the Bismarck was steaming southwestward towards Brest at 20-22 knots.” HMS Edinburgh never made contact with the Bismarck, but the ship was nonetheless granted the Battle Honour ‘BISMARCK’ (May 23-27).
Regrettably, there is no equivalent insight into what HMS Neptune was doing that warranted it being granted the Battle Honour ‘BISMARCK’ (May 23-27). My search goes on.
Again, thank you for bringing this book by Wellings to my attention.
Kind regards, Michael L.
Michael L
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Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Michael L »

My online research has identified the following 'WW2 Cruisers' website:
HMS Neptune - Leander Class Light Cruiser.
... After a refit at Chatham between February and May 1941, Neptune was employed in the search for Bismarck's supply ships, and assisted in the interception of Gonzenheim on 4 June 1941, finally sinking the ship by torpedo. ...
https://www.world-war.co.uk/Leander/neptune.php
At best this is a tertiary reference. Far from the primary or secondary reference(s) I am looking for.
Nonetheless, the absence of any details of HMS Neptune's involvement in the hunt for the Bismarck 23-27 May is in my opinion significant. As the ship was granted the Battle Honour 'BISMARCK' (23-27 May) I would expect something in the way of details. A one sentence summary.
My search goes on.
Kind regards, Michael L.
Byron Angel
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Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Byron Angel »

Go here -
https://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chron ... eptune.htm

Transcript taken verbatim from web page as follows -

3 May 41
Joined 2nd Cruiser Squadron, Home Fleet and commenced work-up..
Deployed with ships of Squadron to escort. HM Battleship KING GEORGE V and HM

23 May 41
Aircraft Carrier VICTORIOUS during search for German Battleship BISMARCK.
Took part in search operation after loss of HM Battlecruiser HOOD.

25 May 41
Detached with HMS VICTORIOUS and HM Cruiser NORFOLK.
Covered passage of military convoy WS8X against possible attack by BISMARCK.


- - - - -

Byron Note:
It is impossible for a search operation to have been undertaken on 23 May “after the loss of HMS HOOD”. HOOD was not lost until the morning of 24 May. I suspect the above passage might better be read as follows –

3 May 41
Joined 2nd Cruiser Squadron, Home Fleet and commenced work-up..

23 May 41
Deployed with ships of Squadron to escort HM Battleship KING GEORGE V and HM
Aircraft Carrier VICTORIOUS during search for German Battleship BISMARCK.

25 May 41
Took part in search operation after loss of HM Battlecruiser HOOD.
Detached with HMS VICTORIOUS and HM Cruiser NORFOLK.
Covered passage of military convoy WS8X against possible attack by BISMARCK.



Thoughts, comments ..... ?


Byron
Michael L
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Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Michael L »

I identified this passage from the Naval History website in my first post.
I agree with how you have rearranged the brief sentences so that they read better.

As I stated in my first post the problems I have with this May 1941 summary are as follows:
"25 May 41 - Detached with HMS VICTORIOUS and HM Cruiser NORFOLK."
As we know, this is not true because HMS Norfolk was present at the sinking of the Bismarck on 27 May. HMS Norfolk was not 'detached'.
"Covered passage of military convoy WS8X against possible attack by BISMARCK."
Records show convoy WS8X did not sail until 31 May. To state the obvious, it was not at sea 23-27 May, so it was not at threat from Bismarck.
"23 May 41 - Deployed with ships of Squadron to escort HM Battleship KING GEORGE V and HM Aircraft Carrier VICTORIOUS during search for German Battleship BISMARCK."
Cross referencing with the other ship pages at the Naval History website does not support this claim. For example:
HMS King George V page: https://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chron ... orge_V.htm
22nd - At 2307 hours KING GEORGE V (Flag CinC Home Fleet), aircraft carrier VICTORIOUS, light cruisers GALATEA (Flag CS2), AURORA, KENYA, and HERMIONE, and destroyers ACTIVE, PUNJABI, NESTOR, LANCE, WINDSOR, INGLEFIELD (D3) and INTREPID sailed from Scapa and set course westerly.”

24th - At 1509 hours, VICTORIOUS, GALATEA, AURORA, KENYA and HERMIONE were detached to steer the best course to get within 100 miles of the enemy and carry out an air strike on BISMARCK.

HMS Neptune not mentioned.
HMS Galatea page: https://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chron ... alatea.htm
22nd - Sailed Scapa Flow to join search.
24th - Joined HM Aircraft Carrier VICTORIOUS with HM Cruisers AURORA, KENYA and HERMIONE during Home Fleet search for BISMARCK and the cruiser PRINZ EUGEN.

HMS Neptune not mentioned.
HMS Kenya page: https://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-06CL-Kenya.htm
22nd - Sailed from Scapa Flow with HM Battleship KING GEORGE V, HM Carrier VICTORIOUS, HM Cruisers AURORA GALATEA and HERMIONE screened by HM Destroyers INTREPID, INGLEFIELD, PUNJABI, LANCE, ACTIVE and WINDSOR to intercept the German battleship BISMARCK reported on passage to attack North Atlantic convoys.
HMS Neptune not mentioned.
HMS Victorious page: https://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chron ... orious.htm
24th - Launched air strike against BISMARCK escorted by HM Cruisers AURORA, KENYA and HERMIONE. One hit obtained but this ran 'shallow' and did little damage. ...
31st - Joined escort for convoy WS8X at Clyde with HM Cruisers NEPTUNE.

HMS Neptune is not mentioned in relation to the critical subject period 23-27 May.

The Naval History website is useful, but needs to be used with caution. It has errors. For example:
HMS Kenya page:
24th - Detached with HMS HERMIONE and HMS AURORA with screen of destroyers to escort HMS VICTORIOUS during air operations after sinking of HM Battlecruiser HOOD.
The ‘error’ in this is that no destroyers were detached 'to screen the aircraft carrier HMS Victorious'. Records show that the Home Fleet’s escorting destroyers were detached to refuel in Iceland at various times on 24 and 25 May. Only the four cruisers Galatea, Aurora, Kenya and Hermione escorted Victorious when she made her dash to attack Bismarck with her aircraft.

In my opinion the Naval History page on HMS Neptune, with respect to the entries for the subject period in May 1941, is poorly written and the details are not supported by other ships’ page entries on the website.
The Navy History website is at best a tertiary reference source. Not the primary or secondary reference I am looking for.

Thank you for your contribution to this discussion Byron.
Kind regards, Michael.
Byron Angel
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Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Byron Angel »

Hi Michael,

Some other items I dredged up from my files -

ADM234/509 - Sinking of the Bismarck, 27 May 1941: Official Despatches
http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 9tovey.htm

Operation Rhine Exercise, May 18-27, 1941 (Naval War College Review, Vol. 72, No. 1 Winter 2019
https://www.jstor.org/stable/26607112?seq=1

One of the things I find curious in the NWC Review article is that the initial RN Order of Battle, as listed, indicates HMS Hermione as en route to Scapa Flow to join 2CS. Yet 2CS is shown at Scapa Flow at a full strength of four ships including Neptune. ADM234/509 mentions 2CS as accompanying HMS Victorious to sea, mentions its strength as four cruisers, but seems a bit reticent about naming the cruisers. Hermione is later mentioned as one of the four cruisers making up 2CS and Neptune is omitted.

Did Neptune perhaps have an upcoming independent assignment when Rheinubung broke, with Hermione delegated to take her place?

B
Michael L
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Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Michael L »

Hi Byron.

Good references. I have come across them during my research and downloaded them.
Let me give you my take on the NWC Review, Winter (northern hemisphere) 2019, first.

NWC 2019.
The Orbat shown was as at 18 May 1941.
As you have identified (page 119) 2CS comprised of; “4 light cruisers: Aurora, Galatea, Kenya, Neptune (at Scapa Flow).” And; “1 light cruiser: Hermione (enroute to Scapa Flow to join CS 2).
I do not view four light cruisers in a ‘Squadron’ as being a rigid figure, rather it is a doctrinal guide. At the Battle of the River Plate Commodore Harwood had three cruisers in his Squadron.
Also, I think that Neptune was, at this time, allocated to 2CS for administrative purposes as it was still, technically, undergoing work-up trials after it’s three-month refit.
Whereas Hermione was a new ship, had carried out acceptance trials in March 1941 and workup trials with 15CS from mid-April to mid-May 1941. The ship was ready to go.

ADM 234/509.
First we see on 21 May Tovey bring to short notice at Scapa Flow the Home Fleet. At this time CS2 consists of Aurora, Galatea, Kenya and Neptune. However, Tovey then adds the following:
The Inglefield (Captain Percy Todd, DSO; Captain (D), Third Destroyer Flotilla) and Intrepid (Commander Roderick C. Gordon, DSO) arrived on 22nd May and joined this force, as did Hermione (Captain Geoffrey N. Oliver) on completing the repair of her fourth turret.
We know that Tovey was not averse to including ships that were not 100% ready. The Prince of Wales was commissioned incomplete on 19 January. The Naval History website has the following entry:
May - 21st - Ship reported to CinC Home Fleet as ready for Fleet service.
(The PRINCE OF WALES had had less than two months working up, which was completely inadequate considering all the new systems and the fact that 80% of her crew were Hostilities Only and had never been on a ship before. Further she still had major problems with her main armament and 100 Vickers Armstrong staff were embarked attempting to fix the problems. … )

https://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chron ... _Wales.htm
Nonetheless, Tovey was desperate for capital ships and ordered the Prince of Wales to sale with Hood.
Victorious was commissioned for service after workup on 29 March 1941. The Naval History website has the following entry:
May - 22nd - Placed at disposal of CinC Home Fleet and sailed with HM Battleship KING GEORGE V in search for German battleship BISMARCK which was on passage into Atlantic. (Note: Aircrew training was incomplete. No other aircraft carrier available).https://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chron ... orious.htm
In 1941 Victorious had a capacity to carry 3 Squadrons of 12 aircraft each, total 36 aircraft. But when Victorious sailed it only had 15 aircraft aboard. Tovey wrote the following in ADM 234/509:
35. The Victorious had only just commissioned. She was about to carry a large consignment of crated Hurricanes to Gibraltar, there to be assembled and flown to Malta, when she was put under my command for this operation. The only operational aircraft she had on board were nine Swordfish of 825 and six Fulmars of 820 Squadron. She had only had a week to work up and the Fulmar crews were far from fully trained.

With the arrival of a fully serviceable Hermione on the afternoon of 22 May, Tovey could afford to switch out Neptune (still doing workup trials), and sail with 2CS as Aurora, Galatea, Kenya and Hermione. Tovey didn’t need another 6inch cruiser. What he needed was more capital ships. To that end, during the course of the search/hunt for the Bismarck, the Admiralty took the capital ships Rodney and Ramillies away from their convoys, as well as the 8inch cruiser Dorsetshire, and placed them at Tovey’s disposal.

I haven’t found any evidence suggesting that Neptune had an upcoming independent assignment. I am guessing, but if Hermione hadn’t turned up Tovey may have sailed with Neptune in 2CS. What Neptune still needed to do was complete its workup trials. From the little evidence we have, I suspect Neptune did complete its workup trials during the period 23-27 May (off the Scottish Coast and in the Irish Sea?) and then arrived off Clyde ready to escort WS8X, departing 31 May. That’s my reasoning. But the fact remains that Neptune was awarded the Battle Honour ‘BISMARCK’ (23-27 May).

I suspect that a Naval Staff Officer got a bit confused with the whole orbat of the Home Fleet in May. Going off Tovey’s ADM 234/509 of 5 July which mentions Neptune as being with 2CS as late as 21 May, and being brough to short notice at Scapa Flow with the rest of the Home Fleet, I suspect that the Navy Staff Officer missed the fact that before sailing late on 22 May Neptune had been swapped out for Hermione. Add to this the fact that both Victorious and Neptune were together escorting WS8X on 31 May, I submit that the Naval Staff Officer (incorrectly) assumed that the two ships had been together for the past ten days. So, when it came time to determine which ships ‘qualified’ for the Battle Honour ‘BISMARCK’ (23-27 May), Neptune was accidentally included (an honest mistake). That’s my theory.

I am away from my place of residence at the moment, getting back home next week. When I do I will consult my hard copy of G. Hummelchen, J. Rohwer, Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-1945.

Kind regards, Michael L.
Byron Angel
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Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Byron Angel »

FWIW, a search for Convoy WS.8X turned up the following on Google Books.

Go here -
https://books.google.com/books?id=ULQOB ... 8X&f=false


“World War II Sea War, Volume 4: Germany sends Russia to the Allies”
Donald A Bertke, Don Kindell, Gordon Smith

WESTERN APPROACHES - 1 June 1941
> Convoy WS.8X departed the Clyde with steamers PORT WYNDHAM (8580grt), DUCHESS OF BEDFORD (20,123grt) and WAIWERA (10,800grt) and AMC ESPERANCE BAY.
> Aircraft Carrier VICTORIOUS and light cruiser NEPTUNE escorted the convoy from 31 May to 5 June.
> Heavy cruiser NORFOLK was with the convoy from 31 May to 11 June, when the convoy arrived at Freetown, Sierra Leone. Destroyers ASSINIBOINE and SAGUENAY escorted the convoy locally
> Destroyers SHERWOOD, LEGION, PIORUN, WIVERN, WILD SWAN, VANSITTART, SAGUENAY, ST MARYS, and BRIGHTON escorted the convoy from 31 May to 3 June. All, but WIVERN, WILD SWAN, and VANSITTART, returning to England.

NEPTUNE apparently accompanied this convoy all the way to Aden, where the ships thereafter proceeded independently to Suez.


Note – I scrolled quite a way through the Google Books page. You might want to explore this page more thoroughly; it is possible that the entire book might actually be presented, as odd as that might seem.


Byron
Michael L
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Location: Australia

Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Michael L »

Hi Byron,
Nice find - day by day. I looked at "World War II Sea War, Volume 4: Germany sends Russia to the Allies" and found that it covers the period June to November 1941 inclusive. "World War II Sea War, Volume 3: The Royal Navy is Bloodied in the Mediterranean" covers the period October 1940 to May 1941. Unfortunately, the online Google pdf version has the North Atlantic period covering the search for the Bismarck redacted. I will search for a copy through my Library, or look at purchasing a pdf version of the book.
Kind regards, Michael L.
Michael L
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Posts: 63
Joined: Sun May 28, 2023 11:28 pm
Location: Australia

Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Michael L »

I managed to source a pdf copy of "World War II Sea War, Volume 3: The Royal Navy is Bloodied in the Mediterranean" through a Spanish website (Lulu). The following is an extract of what I have identified as pertinent entries relating to HMS Neptune and the 2CS cruisers:
10 MAY 1941.
1530 Destroyer BLANKNEY and light cruiser NEPTUNE arrived at Scapa Flow from Rattray Head. Light cruiser NEPTUNE began her work up to operational status.

21 MAY 1941.
1800 - All available Home Fleet warships came to two hours' alert notice as a result of air reconnaissance sighting of German warships at Korsfjord, Norway.
22 MAY 1941.
Light cruiser HERMIONE arrived at Scapa Flow.
2300 - The Home Fleet departed Scapa Flow with battleship KING GEORGE V, aircraft carrier VICTORIOUS, light cruisers GALATEA, AURORA, KENYA, and HERMIONE, plus destroyers ACTIVE, PUNJABI, NESTOR, LANCE, WINDSOR, INGLEFIELD, and INTREPID.
23 MAY 1941.
1200 - The Home Fleet with battleship KING GEORGE V (Admiral Tovey), aircraft carrier VICTORIOUS, light cruisers GALATEA, AURORA, KENYA, and HERMIONE, plus destroyers ACTIVE, PUNJABI, NESTOR, LANCE,
WINDSOR, INGLEFIELD, and INTREPID joined with battle cruiser REPULSE with destroyers LEGION,
SAGUENAY, and ASSINIBOINE off the Butt of Lewis.
25 MAY 1941.
Light cruiser NEPTUNE departed Scapa Flow for the Clyde after working up to combat efficiency.
26 MAY 1941.
Light cruiser NEPTUNE arrived at the Clyde from Scapa Flow after working up to combat efficiency.
Light cruiser HERMIONE arrived at Hvalfjord on the 26th and departed Hvalfjord on the 31st to relieve light cruiser ARETHUSA on Denmark Strait patrol.
27 MAY 1941.
Light cruisers GALATEA and AURORA arrived at Hvalfjord, Iceland to refuel.
Aircraft carrier VICTORIOUS and light cruiser KENYA arrived at Hvalfjord to refuel.
31 May 1941.
Convoy WS.8X departed the Clyde with steamers PORT WYNDHAM (8580grt), DUCHESS OF BEDFORD
(20,123grt), and WAIWERA (10,800grt) and AMC ESPERANCE BAY.
Aircraft carrier VICTORIOUS and light cruiser NEPTUNE escorted the convoy from 31 May to 5 June.

It appears clear that when 2CS left Scapa Flow at midnight on 22/23 May it consisted of the light cruisers Galatea, Aurora, Kenya, and Hermione. Tracking their movements show that they went to Iceland to refuel 26/27 May. There is no mention of HMS Neptune with respect to the search for the Bismarck.

I consider the "World War II Sea War, Volume 3: The Royal Navy is Bloodied in the Mediterranean" to be a well-researched book, and as such a reliable secondary source/reference.

In my opinion the evidence – the few references of HMS Neptune’s movements 25/26 May and the absence of references to HMS Neptune with respect to 2CS underway with Home Fleet on 22/23 May – leads me to conclude that HMS Neptune was not involved in the search for the Bismarck 23-27 May 1941.

I will endeavour to obtain a copy of HMS Neptune’s war diary/ships log, noting the Ship was sunk by mines off Tripoli, Mediterranean, on 19 December 1941.

Kind regards, Michael L.
Byron Angel
Senior Member
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Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:06 am

Re: HMS Neptune's involvment with the Bismarck?

Post by Byron Angel »

I do love a good detective mystery!

Byron
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